Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2021-08-14 19:07:50 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: frame challenge? and no, that seems quite useful |
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| 2021-08-14 19:08:03 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps not a proper frame challenge indeed :) |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:08 | <tomsmeding> | there's also |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:11 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage checkers |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:11 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/checkers |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:15 | <tomsmeding> | if I remember correctly |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:36 | <tomsmeding> | not sure what the differences are |
| 2021-08-14 19:08:48 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: did you figure out the applyExtraParams from yesterday? |
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| 2021-08-14 19:10:43 | <hololeap> | tomsmeding: I haven't heard the term "frame challenge" before. I'm still working on the extra params thing. I drew a diagram which helped me understand the problem |
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| 2021-08-14 19:11:23 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2021/08/14?id=139342#trid139342 |
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| 2021-08-14 19:11:32 | <tomsmeding> | the only thing you need with that particular code is a type application |
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| 2021-08-14 19:11:53 | <tomsmeding> | forget my usage of "frame challenge", it was an improper use of the word I think |
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| 2021-08-14 19:26:06 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: my usage was actually correct! "A frame challenge is where an author answers a question in a wholly different way the querent never asked for, or potentially expressly forbade, but in a way the author feels will actually solve the problem. (Or otherwise improve the querent's life quality or prevent them from making some terrible mistake.) This is as opposed to answers which answer the |
| 2021-08-14 19:26:06 | <tomsmeding> | question at face value." -- https://rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6842/whats-a-frame-challenge |
| 2021-08-14 19:27:23 | <monochrom> | Nice, there is a word for that. :) |
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| 2021-08-14 19:28:39 | <tomsmeding> | fascinating! https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/416923/how-do-we-describe-answering-a-question-tangentially-to-how-it-was-put-forward |
| 2021-08-14 19:28:47 | <tomsmeding> | TIL this is not a word in common use |
| 2021-08-14 19:29:14 | <tomsmeding> | I've indeed seen it used mostly on stackexchange... |
| 2021-08-14 19:29:15 | <maerwald[m]> | https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/p45tw7/going_from_haskell_to_rust/h8x1b44?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 |
| 2021-08-14 19:29:22 | <maerwald[m]> | Haskell vs rust |
| 2021-08-14 19:30:50 | <c_wraith> | I don't understand complaints like that. It's been 10 years since I've had trouble with a library in Haskell |
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| 2021-08-14 19:31:42 | <maerwald[m]> | But I agree that rust ecosystem has much more traction atm |
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| 2021-08-14 19:32:08 | <maerwald[m]> | The frequency of new libraries and projects is 10 times higher atm |
| 2021-08-14 19:32:13 | <monochrom> | And nice, "querent" exists too. |
| 2021-08-14 19:32:24 | <c_wraith> | Oh, that's not entirely true. I had trouble with some libraries stack users made in that period where they believed that they never had to specify version requirements |
| 2021-08-14 19:32:48 | <monochrom> | Oh we just saw an example of that yesterday or the day before. |
| 2021-08-14 19:33:02 | <c_wraith> | stack was such a huge negative to the ecosystem |
| 2021-08-14 19:34:49 | <maerwald[m]> | Well, cargo is neither cabal nor stack, but cabal has focused on imitating stack features instead of going back to being a simple unix style tool. |
| 2021-08-14 19:36:21 | <monochrom> | I think no. cabal certainly doesn't imitate stack's LTS aspect. |
| 2021-08-14 19:36:35 | <monochrom> | And the nix-style thing, the cabal people theorized it first. |
| 2021-08-14 19:36:45 | <sm> | nice discussion maerwald. We need the inverse thread on /r/haskell as well |
| 2021-08-14 19:36:46 | <maerwald[m]> | I'm aware |
| 2021-08-14 19:37:16 | <maerwald[m]> | But atm the UX is barely different, modulo a few things you can simply turn off in stack |
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| 2021-08-14 19:37:50 | <monochrom> | "I want to use rust but I use haskell instead because cabal is simpler than cargo"? >:) |
| 2021-08-14 19:37:52 | <maerwald[m]> | And reading discourse etc ppl request more stack features for cabal |
| 2021-08-14 19:37:53 | <sm> | (https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/p45tw7/going_from_haskell_to_rust) |
| 2021-08-14 19:38:31 | <sm> | said noone ever :) |
| 2021-08-14 19:39:40 | <sclv> | i mean... there still is the simple unix style thing and idk what else it needs as long as it intends to stay simple? and that's ./Setup.hs :-) |
| 2021-08-14 19:39:40 | <maerwald[m]> | I learned rust and wrote a few things. But I never stuck with it. Maybe because you need to type so much |
| 2021-08-14 19:40:06 | <monochrom> | Hand-chasing dependencies is not simple. |
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| 2021-08-14 19:41:21 | <maerwald[m]> | sclv: ya, and now lets build a dependency solver around it that's not over engineered and can install stuff in a *simple* way |
| 2021-08-14 19:43:30 | <hpc> | monochrom: worse - hand-chasing dependencies is simple, slow, boring, and sensitive to tiny changes over time |
| 2021-08-14 19:43:38 | <hpc> | the problem is less "i don't know how" and more "i don't want to" |
| 2021-08-14 19:43:46 | <hpc> | and who would |
| 2021-08-14 19:43:51 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: People who say "cabal is not simple" are only because the cabal file format predates YAML. |
| 2021-08-14 19:43:59 | <sclv> | in my experience people only think that build and package management systems are over complicated until they've tried to create a working one at scale |
| 2021-08-14 19:44:18 | <hpc> | monochrom: agreed |
| 2021-08-14 19:44:24 | <monochrom> | Generally I am skeptic when people say "this is not simple" or "I don't understand this". They always mean something else. They are always wrong. |
| 2021-08-14 19:44:24 | <sclv> | every few years its "just do it like X" |
| 2021-08-14 19:44:39 | <hpc> | i have to look up syntax and field names now and again, but after that everything makes perfect sense |
| 2021-08-14 19:44:52 | <sclv> | where X was like cpan at one point? and then npm, and now cargo. (and a few in between too) |
| 2021-08-14 19:45:07 | <sclv> | oh right, like python at one point |
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| 2021-08-14 19:45:25 | <sclv> | and then you dig in and discover "wait? python has more package managers than haskell does!" |
| 2021-08-14 19:45:32 | <maerwald[m]> | sclv: eh, cabal shoves the entire pkg-config database into the solver and now one understands why or how it works |
| 2021-08-14 19:45:51 | <sclv> | and "ok now building this javascript project requires four package managers that recursively install one another!?" |
| 2021-08-14 19:46:00 | <sm> | unpopular opinions: stack made it possible for me to ship software that built reliably and easily, when cabal could not. Now cabal technically can do that but the UX still hasn't caught up |
| 2021-08-14 19:46:32 | <maerwald[m]> | So yes, there are a number of reasons cabal-install isn't simple |
| 2021-08-14 19:46:36 | <sclv> | and also, the systems that initially appear to work Really well, like cargo, do so because either they're highly curated, or have a small set of packages, or bitrot has not yet set in because they're so young, or some combination |
| 2021-08-14 19:47:20 | <sclv> | (or in npm's case its just "untyped langauge let people paper over a lot of what would have been errors in any other ecosystem") |
| 2021-08-14 19:47:29 | <sm> | sclv: +1, I feel cargo must have some of these going on but I don't know which |
| 2021-08-14 19:47:29 | <hpc> | cargo is (was?) especially weird with how many packages require pre-release versions of rust |
| 2021-08-14 19:48:06 | <sclv> | like I do not doubt that people's experiences with rust package management are really nice at the moment. but i think that's a matter of time and maturity. purescript went thru the same thing iirc. |
| 2021-08-14 19:48:14 | <c_wraith> | fewer packages require that now, mostly they were things that depended on a couple features like async that have been released. |
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| 2021-08-14 19:48:57 | <sclv> | sm i don't feel that opinion is unpopular btw. we have a lot of ongoing work on documentation and ux. |
| 2021-08-14 19:49:32 | <sclv> | and features like auto-fetching git repos have undoubtably turned out to be large qol improvements, even tho they seem pretty easy to work around |
| 2021-08-14 19:49:38 | <sm> | sclv: great. It often feels unpopular in here, but I know #haskell is not the world :) |
| 2021-08-14 19:49:49 | <c_wraith> | stack itself is fine, but it did a lot of damage to hackage |
| 2021-08-14 19:50:00 | <c_wraith> | because it encouraged people to release broken libraries |
| 2021-08-14 19:50:10 | sm | refrains from arguing |
| 2021-08-14 19:50:11 | <c_wraith> | and then they got really angry when hvr started fixing the breakage |
| 2021-08-14 19:50:33 | <sclv> | like, i mean, i'm tracking the large amount of work that the new maintainers and hf is putting into ux and documentation on cabal, and its pretty clear that this is a known area of improvement |
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