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Logs: liberachat/#haskell

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2021-06-03 12:37:31 favonia joins (~favonia@user/favonia)
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2021-06-03 12:44:06 <stefan-_> :t ($ 32)
2021-06-03 12:44:07 <lambdabot> Num a => (a -> b) -> b
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2021-06-03 12:53:21 <carbolymer> is there a real difference between `MonadBaseControl IO m` and `MonadUnliftIO m`? at first glance both seem to accomplish the same
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2021-06-03 12:56:31 <carbolymer> oh nvm, I'm reading blogpost which has this near the end https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/09/07/demystifying-monadbasecontrol/
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2021-06-03 13:05:13 carbolymer considers yeeting away unliftio from the project and replacing it with MonadBaseControl lifting
2021-06-03 13:05:49 <comerijn> carbolymer: That's the wrong way around
2021-06-03 13:05:56 <comerijn> MonadBaseControl is nightmare fuel
2021-06-03 13:06:10 <carbolymer> pls explain
2021-06-03 13:06:19 <carbolymer> from what I see, I can achieve the same effect
2021-06-03 13:06:28 <comerijn> After over a decade of Haskell I don't think I (or really, anyone else) can safely use MonadBaseControl
2021-06-03 13:06:41 <comerijn> carbolymer: No, there are lots of things that can't be made MonadUnliftIO
2021-06-03 13:06:48 × node-sh quits (~node-sh@2401:4900:3b32:43a1:8c96:2e93:ccfe:1ffe) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2021-06-03 13:06:59 <comerijn> For good reason, because their MonadBaseControl instance are insanity inducing
2021-06-03 13:08:13 <comerijn> For example, you cannot make StateT MonadUnliftIO, because the semantics of things like "catch" are *wildly* confusing
2021-06-03 13:09:35 <sclv> I fundamentally disagree
2021-06-03 13:09:49 <sclv> MonadUnliftIO is essentially useless to me
2021-06-03 13:10:03 <carbolymer> comerijn: I mean, yeah, right, I meant MonadBaseControl is more general, and one can do more with it
2021-06-03 13:10:06 <sclv> because iirc it only unlifts things iso to reader
2021-06-03 13:10:33 node-sh joins (~node-sh@2401:4900:3b32:43a1:8c96:2e93:ccfe:1ffe)
2021-06-03 13:10:51 <sclv> all my monad stacks are more interesting than what it lets me do
2021-06-03 13:11:08 <boxscape> well it's designed to work with the ReaderT pattern so that makes sense
2021-06-03 13:11:33 <sclv> The problem imho is that for a very long time people didn't realize that there's (basically for mathematical reasons) no way to do any sort of unlift for ContT type monads -- this is a hard barrier
2021-06-03 13:11:58 <sclv> so we had things that attempted to be more general than actually possible
2021-06-03 13:12:37 × favonia quits (~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-06-03 13:12:43 <sclv> the right middle ground for my cases has always been unlifting for things that can be presented algebrically, since there's good tools for reasoning about those, and its formally sound
2021-06-03 13:13:37 <sclv> if you understand those reasoning tools, then i've found the semantics for things like catch not too confusing at all
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