Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2026-01-27 22:51:02 | <ski> | most of those are "mostly the same" (not counting Verilog), when comparing to Haskell |
| 2026-01-27 22:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | having much programming experience is of course very helpful, but still, programming in haskell requires a rather different mindset than for more traditional imperative languages |
| 2026-01-27 22:51:25 | <tomsmeding> | you should expect to feel like a programming noob, at least for a little while :) |
| 2026-01-27 22:51:52 | <ski> | coming at it with a mindset that you don't know programming yet, helps, yes |
| 2026-01-27 22:51:57 | <tomsmeding> | as you get a little experience with functional programming, you'll start to see the connections to what you've been doing so far and you'll be able to use all your knowledge |
| 2026-01-27 22:52:17 | <Guest41> | yeah maybe just having a student mindset instead of trying to blaze thru would help |
| 2026-01-27 22:52:31 | <ski> | some things will be different, sometimes very different. some things will carry over. but it's better to defer comparisions until you've got the basics covered |
| 2026-01-27 22:52:37 | <Guest41> | I always try to make small little projects that increase in complexity and that's how I learn to program in new languages |
| 2026-01-27 22:52:41 | <ski> | you will have to unlearn old habits |
| 2026-01-27 22:52:53 | <tomsmeding> | then again, learn as you wish, as long as you have fun it's probably fine :) |
| 2026-01-27 22:53:04 | <tomsmeding> | keep thinking |
| 2026-01-27 22:53:07 | <Guest41> | so far I've made conways' game of life, snake, a simple sat solver, and now i'm working on a stochastic parrot |
| 2026-01-27 22:53:22 | <Guest41> | yeah lots of unlearning, separating IO for example is very weird :laugh: |
| 2026-01-27 22:54:07 | <ski> | one could view it as taking "separate internal machinery from UI presentation" to a higher degree |
| 2026-01-27 22:54:18 | <jreicher> | Guest41: chatgpt won't teach you anything. That's not what it does. |
| 2026-01-27 22:54:41 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 2026-01-27 22:55:18 | <jreicher> | LLMs model language that exists. Teaching, by definition, requires modelling ignorance. |
| 2026-01-27 22:55:42 | <tomsmeding> | there's teaching content on haskell and other FP topics out there, and that's part of the "language that exists" |
| 2026-01-27 22:56:10 | <tomsmeding> | as you can see, I also don't agree that learning just from an LLM is a good strategy, but "teaching is not what is does" is slightly overly reductive |
| 2026-01-27 22:56:18 | <jreicher> | Yes, but summarising well written teaching text can't make it better. It was already well written. It's only going to make it worse. |
| 2026-01-27 22:56:29 | <tomsmeding> | it can't make it better, but it can make it more personalised |
| 2026-01-27 22:56:46 | <jreicher> | I'll concede that's possible, but I think I'd like to see it. |
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| 2026-01-27 22:57:42 | <tomsmeding> | LLMs are an amazing search engine: if you want to know what weird GHC extension gives you `foo @Int` syntax, for example, it's essentially guaranteed to be able to tell you "that's TypeApplications", and then you can look up the docs for that |
| 2026-01-27 22:57:57 | <tomsmeding> | whereas putting "@Int" in a search engine is guaranteed to fail |
| 2026-01-27 22:58:39 | <jreicher> | Yep, I've been using them for searching. But as soon as I feel like I need to learn an underlying concept that might be new for me, I follow the link to the source. |
| 2026-01-27 22:58:40 | Rembane | shakes fist at Google |
| 2026-01-27 22:58:48 | tomsmeding | too |
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| 2026-01-27 22:59:22 | tomsmeding | shakes fist at Rembane's shaking fist |
| 2026-01-27 23:00:10 | × | tromp quits (~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2026-01-27 23:00:37 | <Rembane> | tomsmeding: Now we just need to figure out how to shake fist recursively and we will have the ultimate old-man-yelling-at-clouds sourcery! |
| 2026-01-27 23:01:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 2026-01-27 23:01:11 | <tomsmeding> | there's probably a way to make a circular Shake build recipe called "fist" |
| 2026-01-27 23:01:30 | ski | idly ponders corecursion |
| 2026-01-27 23:03:01 | <Rembane> | fix . Shake $ fist |
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| 2026-01-27 23:04:04 | Guest41 | nods |
| 2026-01-27 23:04:14 | Guest41 | runs away as fast as he can towards textbooks |
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| 2026-01-27 23:04:35 | <tomsmeding> | I think #haskell is not the right place to go if you want to talk about LLMs lol |
| 2026-01-27 23:05:03 | <jreicher> | Oh dear, we really did scare them off. |
| 2026-01-27 23:05:45 | <tomsmeding> | well, some amount of scaring was appropriate, perhaps; not sure if scaring them away was necessary |
| 2026-01-27 23:05:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh well |
| 2026-01-27 23:06:04 | ski | doubts it was scaring off |
| 2026-01-27 23:06:30 | <Rembane> | Maybe they'll come back. We'll see. |
| 2026-01-27 23:07:17 | <ski> | they could just be humorously expressing that they want to go to focus on the links provided, and not be distracted |
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| 2026-01-27 23:07:55 | <tomsmeding> | possible yes, and in any case if we did scare them off I think we were considerate enough; opinions were expressed, but then, that's what you go on the internet for |
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| 2026-01-27 23:12:11 | <__monty__> | While I'm sure an LLM could also tell you, DDG gives me two hits in the first three results with the query `GHC foo @Int`. Burning a whole lot less energy in the process and not being built on nearly as exploitative a technology. |
| 2026-01-27 23:12:32 | <tomsmeding> | that's better than I expected |
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| 2026-01-27 23:12:51 | <tomsmeding> | and the user guide is even one of them! |
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| 2026-01-27 23:16:33 | <jreicher> | The whole energy consumption aspect is pretty depressing. I really struggle with that. |
| 2026-01-27 23:17:00 | <tomsmeding> | it's one of the main reasons I hesitate to use them even for tasks they are appropriate for |
| 2026-01-27 23:17:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2026-01-27 23:20:59 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> For me also the moral, copyright, and corporate control aspects |
| 2026-01-27 23:21:59 | <[exa]> | c'mon guys no one ever had issues from listening to a good advisor with plenty of great ideas coming from whoknowswhere |
| 2026-01-27 23:22:10 | <jreicher> | I really like Hinton's point (other people have probably made it to) that biological brains provide a tradeoff of being uncopyable but very low power consumption. It's a surprising (for me) way of looking at it, but makes sense. |
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| 2026-01-27 23:23:30 | <[exa]> | jreicher: wouldn't say "uncopyable", more like "gotten too squishy to do much else than thinking" |
| 2026-01-27 23:23:58 | tomsmeding | likes squishy matrices |
| 2026-01-27 23:25:24 | <jreicher> | "Uncopyable" is my paraphrase. The full point is that with software you can produce multiple instances from the one training history. But when you train a biological brain, you only have that instance. |
| 2026-01-27 23:26:47 | <[exa]> | like, getting identical copies of fresh brains ain't easy for sure |
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| 2026-01-27 23:27:11 | [exa] | -> back to haskell |
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| 2026-01-27 23:29:14 | <Rembane> | I want a hot spare |
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| 2026-01-27 23:38:16 | <__monty__> | Are brains really that low energy? 2000 kcal/day = 2.3 kWh/day. From a random website a computer used 8 h/day will use about 146 kWh/year. So that's roughly half a brain. Unless we face that fact that most of our brain power is probably dedicated to "wasted" computation, like acquiring food, procreating etc. |
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| 2026-01-28 00:05:20 | <geekosaur> | right, we're doing a lot more than computers are |
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