Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2021-07-14 00:38:47 | <hololeap> | every person has exactly two biological parents... is that a reasonable enough assumption? |
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| 2021-07-14 00:40:46 | <geekosaur> | for genetics yes, for other aspects no |
| 2021-07-14 00:41:11 | <geekosaur> | and the biological parents may be unrelated to the familial parents |
| 2021-07-14 00:41:46 | <hololeap> | That's why I specified _biological_ parents |
| 2021-07-14 00:42:09 | <hololeap> | I'd be interested in hearing of a case where someone didn't have exactly two biological parents |
| 2021-07-14 00:42:15 | <hololeap> | cloning? |
| 2021-07-14 00:42:43 | <hololeap> | someone = an individual of the homo-sapeins species |
| 2021-07-14 00:43:32 | <geekosaur> | actually davean's earlier comment implied unexpected complexity |
| 2021-07-14 00:44:35 | <hololeap> | I understand that it wouldn't necessarily make a nice binary tree all the way up, but I'm wondering if we can at least hold it as axiomatic that each individual has exactly two biological parents |
| 2021-07-14 00:45:37 | <davean> | geekosaur: well, consider if you had an egg donated, but used the birthing mother's nucleus with some male's sperm. We're up to 3 now. And that differs mitocondrially |
| 2021-07-14 00:45:44 | <davean> | geekosaur: Thats a simple case |
| 2021-07-14 00:45:55 | <geekosaur> | was considering raising that case |
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| 2021-07-14 00:46:16 | <hololeap> | I would think the egg and sperm donors would be the two in that case |
| 2021-07-14 00:46:42 | <davean> | hololeap: nope, the nucleous provide's materal DNS also |
| 2021-07-14 00:46:57 | <davean> | You've got 3 clear DNA sources |
| 2021-07-14 00:47:05 | <davean> | all providing seperate DNA |
| 2021-07-14 00:47:19 | <hololeap> | I guess you could argue that the blood from the surrugate mother would be in the fetus as well |
| 2021-07-14 00:47:31 | <davean> | No, no, I'm talking clearer than that here |
| 2021-07-14 00:47:48 | <davean> | I wasn't even talking about a surrugate - though that can matter also of course |
| 2021-07-14 00:47:53 | <davean> | also, can I remind you of chimeras? |
| 2021-07-14 00:48:01 | <hololeap> | lol |
| 2021-07-14 00:48:26 | <davean> | They happen |
| 2021-07-14 00:48:43 | <davean> | ANYWAY, parents are complicated |
| 2021-07-14 00:49:05 | <hololeap> | I'm definitely not trying to mock... but what do you mean by chimeras? |
| 2021-07-14 00:49:22 | <davean> | hololeap: chimeras are where multiple zygotes merge and form one individual |
| 2021-07-14 00:49:42 | <hololeap> | oh... ok. I thought you meant like a human-animal hybrid |
| 2021-07-14 00:49:50 | <davean> | No, its a human-human hybrid |
| 2021-07-14 00:49:56 | <davean> | So maybe you're you, but your liver is your unborn sister. |
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| 2021-07-14 00:50:15 | <davean> | Or maybe your unborn half brother |
| 2021-07-14 00:50:16 | <hololeap> | No, I've never heard of that and that's really interesting |
| 2021-07-14 00:50:46 | <davean> | Look, this is REALLY complicated. And some politicans got together and decided what data would go on the forms |
| 2021-07-14 00:50:59 | <davean> | :) |
| 2021-07-14 00:51:03 | <davean> | The best way to make a standard |
| 2021-07-14 00:51:16 | <hololeap> | fair enough. I just wanted to find a model that would make sense, but it sounds like it can get really bizarre |
| 2021-07-14 00:51:27 | <davean> | REALLY bizar |
| 2021-07-14 00:51:52 | <davean> | You could have mitocondria from one person, male and female donated from 2 others, and be a chimera |
| 2021-07-14 00:51:54 | <davean> | Who the fuck knows |
| 2021-07-14 00:52:09 | <hololeap> | where can I read more about this? |
| 2021-07-14 00:52:26 | <davean> | Uh, no idea |
| 2021-07-14 00:52:35 | <davean> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) has a section on human chimeras |
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| 2021-07-14 00:52:47 | <davean> | the first example has shown up in IVF |
| 2021-07-14 00:53:13 | <davean> | uh, I only know about this because I had to descamble genetics databases for a genetics lab information management tool back in the day |
| 2021-07-14 00:53:35 | <hololeap> | that's cool. you have first-hand evidence |
| 2021-07-14 00:54:20 | <davean> | oh huh, wikipedia says, after I got out of this, there DID become human-animal chimeras |
| 2021-07-14 00:54:23 | <davean> | well thats a thing |
| 2021-07-14 00:54:38 | <davean> | So yah, your parents might even be different species I guess |
| 2021-07-14 00:54:44 | <davean> | Thats even more complicated than I knew of! |
| 2021-07-14 00:55:19 | <davean> | hololeap: oh this actually suggests a REALLY simple case I didn't even think of! Organ donation |
| 2021-07-14 00:55:30 | <davean> | I mean not what people generally mean here, but in a medical sense it matters |
| 2021-07-14 00:58:23 | <davean> | hololeap: https://www.statnews.com/2019/01/24/first-trial-of-three-person-ivf-for-infertility/ here is the origional case I listed, or a way it happens |
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| 2021-07-14 00:58:49 | <davean> | I don't know how much you know about biology, I was guessing not much sine the initial example seemed to miss, but that could be how I said it |
| 2021-07-14 00:59:07 | <davean> | basicly mitochondria are seperate "sub cells" with their own genetics |
| 2021-07-14 00:59:28 | <davean> | seperate from what you generally think of as "your DNA" from your basic bio classes in HS |
| 2021-07-14 00:59:57 | <davean> | and its purely matrolineal (under normal circumstances! One COULD swap them out from the father of course if done on purpose!) |
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| 2021-07-14 01:18:11 | <hololeap> | I'm not that familiar with that level of human biology, mostly just the basic stuff that you mentioned from HS. I know a bit more about botany and I know that can get really bizarre as well |
| 2021-07-14 01:18:34 | <yin[m]> | this is hilariously creepy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw0AEtrr7E0 |
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| 2021-07-14 01:27:25 | <hololeap> | davean: I thought of organ donation after you mentioned the possibility of my liver being from a different zygote, and it ties into that whole philosophical dilemma of when a person stops being human after N bionic body replacements |
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| 2021-07-14 01:28:04 | <davean> | stops being human? I'd think the question would be when they stop being the same human |
| 2021-07-14 01:28:28 | <geekosaur> | "bionic" |
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| 2021-07-14 01:29:32 | <hololeap> | there's a futurama episode that goes into this :) |
| 2021-07-14 01:29:34 | <geekosaur> | kinda odd to consider a human in the context of the ship of Theseus |
| 2021-07-14 01:30:07 | <davean> | geekosaur: I don't find it odd at all - or I find it odd to consider a person is the same person over any period of time thats non-negligable |
| 2021-07-14 01:30:28 | <davean> | if someone doesn't change, they're not really worth considering much of a person, are they? |
| 2021-07-14 01:30:53 | <davean> | if they don't act, or think like they did, how would you determin they're the same? |
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| 2021-07-14 01:31:08 | <geekosaur> | I'm actually on your side of that argument, but their body parts have continuity even though they have changed |
| 2021-07-14 01:31:19 | <geekosaur> | (cells already do the ship of theseus thing) |
| 2021-07-14 01:31:32 | <nshepperd> | a human is the squishy thing in the skull. the rest is just scaffolding |
| 2021-07-14 01:32:46 | <hololeap> | I read about cases of people taking on their donors memories after getting an organ transplant... not sure if it's true or not, but interesting to consider nonetheless |
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