Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-06-21 09:39:18 | <Taneb> | ocramz: so, why should someone lose control of something they've created because it gets popular? That's what I understand of what you're proposing |
| 2021-06-21 09:39:39 | → | elf_fortrez joins (~elf_fortr@adsl-64-237-239-58.prtc.net) |
| 2021-06-21 09:39:40 | <merijn> | Taneb: Well, he proposed they should lose control because they made it public on Hackage |
| 2021-06-21 09:39:47 | <merijn> | Taneb: That's slightly different |
| 2021-06-21 09:39:53 | <merijn> | But I still don't think it's a great idea |
| 2021-06-21 09:40:30 | <ocramz> | the (current?) architecture of cabal/hackage forces this particular state of things |
| 2021-06-21 09:40:38 | <merijn> | ocramz: I'm not saying it's not important. I'm saying it's not important enough to take away from owners |
| 2021-06-21 09:40:54 | <merijn> | How so? |
| 2021-06-21 09:40:58 | <ocramz> | whereas forking is ..? |
| 2021-06-21 09:41:01 | <kuribas> | merijn: cassava :: 565 DLs, csv :: 181 Dls (last upload 2010) csv-conduit :: 119 DLs |
| 2021-06-21 09:41:19 | <kuribas> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/search?terms=csv |
| 2021-06-21 09:41:31 | <merijn> | ocramz: Making a new thing with a different name and distinct new person in charge |
| 2021-06-21 09:41:58 | <Taneb> | kuribas: groups, 823 downloads in the past 30 days. I don't think anyone's suggested that groups should be standard |
| 2021-06-21 09:42:07 | <merijn> | Taneb: Lots of bot downloads |
| 2021-06-21 09:42:15 | <merijn> | kuribas: Those are number per version, btw |
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| 2021-06-21 09:43:24 | <Taneb> | And I think a lot of people get their packages from stackage or nixpkgs or similar not-Hackage sources these days and that won't count for those download stats |
| 2021-06-21 09:43:35 | → | teaSlurper joins (~chris@81.96.113.213) |
| 2021-06-21 09:44:11 | <kuribas> | Just showing that Cassava is by far the most popular CSV parser, and Aeson for JSON... |
| 2021-06-21 09:44:19 | <kuribas> | prove me wrong... |
| 2021-06-21 09:44:24 | <merijn> | Right, but I wasn't arguing popularity |
| 2021-06-21 09:44:33 | <Taneb> | I don't think anyone was arguing that they weren't |
| 2021-06-21 09:45:21 | <merijn> | I wasn't arguing "those aren't core, because they're not the most popular" I was arguing "they aren't core, because their usage isn't nearly universal enough" |
| 2021-06-21 09:45:45 | <ocramz> | idk feels like we've hit ideological brick walls here. You upload a BSD package to the commons, plant a flag, and then impede its evolution |
| 2021-06-21 09:45:59 | <tomsmeding> | kuribas: just as a data point on people disagreeing about the definition of "core": anything that cannot be compiled in 2 GB of RAM is something that I personally would never want as "core" :p |
| 2021-06-21 09:45:59 | <ocramz> | this, to me, is backwards |
| 2021-06-21 09:46:00 | × | Cajun quits (~Cajun@ip98-163-211-112.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2021-06-21 09:46:22 | <tomsmeding> | (hint, aeson) |
| 2021-06-21 09:46:39 | <tomsmeding> | vector barely passes iirc |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:05 | <ocramz> | tomsmeding: that's a pretty arbitrary bar but ok |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:11 | <merijn> | ocramz: Well, Hackage is open source and welcomes more contributions if you have better ideas |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:33 | <merijn> | ocramz: Who gets to decide when/who gets to steal a package, though? |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:39 | <ocramz> | "steal" |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:41 | <Taneb> | ocramz: the flag you plant is just a name |
| 2021-06-21 09:47:55 | <kuribas> | I am fine with using something else that Aeson or Cassava, but there isn't much, is there? |
| 2021-06-21 09:48:08 | <tomsmeding> | ocramz: true :) |
| 2021-06-21 09:48:11 | <ocramz> | you literally placed in the middle of the town square, with your name written on a post it |
| 2021-06-21 09:48:30 | <Taneb> | It's a pretty large town square |
| 2021-06-21 09:48:36 | <merijn> | ocramz: I have package foo, person X wants to basically completely change the direction of my package |
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| 2021-06-21 09:48:48 | <merijn> | ocramz: At which point is this progress vs ruining? |
| 2021-06-21 09:48:51 | <merijn> | Who is the arbiter? |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:15 | → | jneira joins (~jneira@212.8.115.226) |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:19 | <ocramz> | case by case basis. If you let it bitrot for two years and it doesn't build with the latest compilers then it's not ruining it's evolving |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:29 | <ocramz> | oh, Hackage-wide CI would be nice too |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:35 | <ocramz> | getting there though |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:36 | <kuribas> | maybe we should have a "core" CSV and JSON parser, which is handled by a committee, like the standard libraries? |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:41 | × | allbery_b quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-06-21 09:49:48 | <merijn> | ocramz: Who decides the case-by-case basis? |
| 2021-06-21 09:50:17 | <merijn> | kuribas: That's a great way to slow down development, not speed up |
| 2021-06-21 09:50:18 | <Taneb> | kuribas: that doesn't feel like a solution to the underlying problem |
| 2021-06-21 09:50:28 | <merijn> | kuribas: Now that CLC has to agree to any API changes... |
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| 2021-06-21 09:52:10 | <ocramz> | merijn: idk the next candidate maintainer? |
| 2021-06-21 09:52:18 | <kuribas> | python comes with csv and json out of the box. |
| 2021-06-21 09:52:26 | <ocramz> | the alternatives here are 1. bitrot 2. doing something about it |
| 2021-06-21 09:52:53 | <ocramz> | anyway kuribas : use csv-conduit and text , and be merry |
| 2021-06-21 09:52:57 | <merijn> | What if people do not agree whether a library is bitrotting? |
| 2021-06-21 09:52:58 | <Taneb> | kuribas: I'm not convinced that Python is the best language for Haskell to imitate |
| 2021-06-21 09:53:29 | <ocramz> | merijn : I don't understand what's your angle besides fabricating objections |
| 2021-06-21 09:53:38 | <merijn> | kuribas: And as soon as something moves into python's core libraries it stops changing and >60% of the core libraries are now deprecated/recommended against by now |
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| 2021-06-21 09:54:15 | <merijn> | ocramz: My angle is: People are gonna people and people *are* gonna try to take over stufff and you can't just handwave this stuff without having a solid and well-defined process for how to handle edge cases |
| 2021-06-21 09:54:29 | <merijn> | ocramz: Your suggestion currently is just "we should let people take over packages" |
| 2021-06-21 09:54:42 | <ocramz> | kuribas : come chat on the datahaskell gitter if you want to do something for Hs data stuff http://gitter.im/dataHaskell/Lobby |
| 2021-06-21 09:54:59 | <merijn> | ocramz: My counter-argument is: there is absolutely no sensible/feasible process for doing that and I don't think one can exist |
| 2021-06-21 09:55:12 | <ocramz> | I think one should exist instead |
| 2021-06-21 09:55:13 | <merijn> | ocramz: You are free to convince me by proposing a process that seems fair and feasible |
| 2021-06-21 09:55:22 | <Taneb> | For what it's worth, there _is_ a process for taking over a package on Hackage: https://wiki.haskell.org/Taking_over_a_package |
| 2021-06-21 09:55:54 | <ocramz> | aka "howling into the void" |
| 2021-06-21 09:55:57 | <merijn> | Taneb: Right, but ocramz wants a process that lets you take over packages even if maintainers are not absent, just no merging what people want |
| 2021-06-21 09:56:09 | <merijn> | That's a massive can of worms |
| 2021-06-21 09:56:31 | <merijn> | And you better have a solid and fair process. And I don't think one (can) exist |
| 2021-06-21 09:57:05 | <merijn> | So the only way to convince me that "taking over packages" is a good idea is by proposing a process that might work. |
| 2021-06-21 09:57:29 | <merijn> | Until such a process is defined I am opposed to the whole idea |
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| 2021-06-21 09:58:57 | <ocramz> | I think instead it's about taking this very tenuous notion of OSS "ownership", in the specific incarnation on the Hackage namespace, to its logical conclusion |
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| 2021-06-21 10:00:23 | <merijn> | ocramz: Ownership and personal pride are the only thing keeping non-commercial OSS alive |
| 2021-06-21 10:02:11 | × | ukari quits (~ukari@user/ukari) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-06-21 10:02:17 | <ocramz> | what about building on the shoulders of giants? using, hopefully, working dependencies? not reinventing the wheel every 6 months? those are also things we all take for granted |
| 2021-06-21 10:02:41 | <ocramz> | yet, take work besides pride and ownership in your little pretty garden |
| 2021-06-21 10:03:07 | <merijn> | ocramz: Building on the shoulder of giants is great. If those giants are starving and burned out |
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| 2021-06-21 10:13:42 | <kuribas> | merijn: for me OSS is more about solving something that hasn't been solved yet (satisfactory), and making it public so it can help other people. |
| 2021-06-21 10:14:15 | <__monty__> | That's the fun part of FOSS, not the sustainable part though. |
| 2021-06-21 10:14:28 | <merijn> | kuribas: And you don't take any pride in your solutions? |
| 2021-06-21 10:14:31 | <__monty__> | All your newfangled gadgets need to be maintained to remain useful. |
| 2021-06-21 10:14:39 | <kuribas> | merijn: I do :) |
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