Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-07-09 19:07:18 | → | eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:39f3:da:7ab8:bc1e) |
| 2021-07-09 19:07:22 | <davean> | Thats a reasonable working definition of debugging in many ways |
| 2021-07-09 19:07:25 | → | favonia joins (~favonia@user/favonia) |
| 2021-07-09 19:07:30 | <Hecate> | hm okay |
| 2021-07-09 19:07:50 | <sclv> | well i mean specification, implementation and documentation all may vary |
| 2021-07-09 19:08:10 | <davean> | sclv: depending on which definition of specification you're using |
| 2021-07-09 19:08:25 | <Hecate> | a function specification document I guess? |
| 2021-07-09 19:08:36 | <sclv> | specification is a socially agreed on thing that can be validated against |
| 2021-07-09 19:08:43 | <davean> | well I'd say implimentation is how you write down the specification, the specification is the actual behaviors |
| 2021-07-09 19:08:58 | × | raehik quits (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:09:07 | <sclv> | implementation is a thing you validate against the specification, unless its a reference implementation taken to be the specification |
| 2021-07-09 19:09:44 | <davean> | Hecate: do you get what I'm saying about about debugging though? |
| 2021-07-09 19:09:52 | <Hecate> | that's the moment where I realise I missed a bunch of things by not studying onthology of programs lol |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:01 | → | Deide joins (~Deide@217.155.19.23) |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:02 | × | Deide quits (~Deide@217.155.19.23) (Changing host) |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:02 | → | Deide joins (~Deide@user/deide) |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:08 | <sclv> | specifications MAY have undefined behaviors. implementations definitionally CANNOT |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:11 | <Hecate> | davean: yes, debugging is acting against the observable behaviour |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:21 | → | raehik joins (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:27 | <davean> | or derivable, sorta the same thing? |
| 2021-07-09 19:10:31 | <davean> | but yah |
| 2021-07-09 19:11:08 | <davean> | The main documentation I want is an ordering of how I should read an implimentation |
| 2021-07-09 19:11:25 | <Hecate> | like Jonesforth? |
| 2021-07-09 19:11:39 | <monochrom> | oh, internal vs external documentation... |
| 2021-07-09 19:11:55 | → | __monty__ joins (~toonn@user/toonn) |
| 2021-07-09 19:11:57 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:39f3:da:7ab8:bc1e) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:12:29 | × | chele quits (~chele@user/chele) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-07-09 19:13:27 | × | xff0x quits (~xff0x@185.65.135.235) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:14:17 | <davean> | Hecate: I'm not sure what that is, but a search seems to show a fuckton of problematic words instead of an actual order I should read an implimentation in |
| 2021-07-09 19:14:39 | → | xff0x joins (~xff0x@2001:1a81:521d:ec00:3970:2542:2f1d:feb7) |
| 2021-07-09 19:15:08 | <Hecate> | https://github.com/nornagon/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.S |
| 2021-07-09 19:15:13 | <Hecate> | It's literate programming |
| 2021-07-09 19:15:21 | <Hecate> | you read it from top to bottom |
| 2021-07-09 19:15:33 | <davean> | Great, see all thsoe words? Remove them |
| 2021-07-09 19:15:38 | <davean> | DO NOT WANT |
| 2021-07-09 19:16:07 | <Hecate> | not gonna lie when you don't know shit to Forth or Asm, it's darn useful :P |
| 2021-07-09 19:16:21 | <Hecate> | but I acknowledge that we have different needs |
| 2021-07-09 19:16:31 | <davean> | This is someone's attempt to explain sometihng with code |
| 2021-07-09 19:16:35 | <davean> | it is NOT specificaiton |
| 2021-07-09 19:16:51 | <davean> | I do not get truth from this |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:01 | <Hecate> | (technically yes, because each Forth is different) |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:11 | <Hecate> | you get the truth about this program's behaviour |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:12 | × | raehik quits (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:20 | <davean> | Not from the words |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:31 | <Hecate> | you mean the prose? |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:34 | <davean> | yes |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:41 | <Hecate> | what is truth for you? |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:55 | <davean> | Now, take time to write the implimentation carefully so its assembled in a convinient form to think about |
| 2021-07-09 19:17:57 | <davean> | THATS helpful |
| 2021-07-09 19:18:28 | <davean> | Pick useful base pieces, build your implimentation from those |
| 2021-07-09 19:18:47 | → | eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:39f3:da:7ab8:bc1e) |
| 2021-07-09 19:19:10 | <davean> | Good factoring is sorta like documentation |
| 2021-07-09 19:19:15 | <Hecate> | it only works when you use an implementation mechanism that can be perfectly understood, where you presume your reader to be ridden of all biases or unable to mis-understand your code |
| 2021-07-09 19:19:35 | <davean> | No, it doesn't have to be perfectly understood - it can't be |
| 2021-07-09 19:19:38 | <monochrom> | This being asm, I do expect a mess, code that misses the forest for the trees, and clever tricks that need back-stories. |
| 2021-07-09 19:19:41 | <davean> | but you can reach truths from it |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:11 | <davean> | Hecate: and no, theres no room for biases when you actually face truth |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:18 | <davean> | prose is what allows biases, etc |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:22 | <davean> | because theres room for interpritation |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:34 | <Hecate> | davean: what do you call "truth"? For me it's the relationship between your perception of fact, and facts |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:57 | <Hecate> | when they become aligned in their complexity, then you reach truth |
| 2021-07-09 19:20:59 | <davean> | Truth is exactly what is |
| 2021-07-09 19:21:18 | <davean> | Your understanding is beside the point |
| 2021-07-09 19:21:52 | <Hecate> | your understanding is what allows you to act on truth, that's why many people with diverging conclusions are convinced to posess truth |
| 2021-07-09 19:21:57 | <Hecate> | despite facing the same facts |
| 2021-07-09 19:22:37 | <davean> | act sure - perhaps. Though I'd say one can act correctly without understanding. I've verified many things and used them without gaining understanding. |
| 2021-07-09 19:28:35 | → | MQ-17J joins (~MQ-17J@8.21.10.15) |
| 2021-07-09 19:29:30 | × | haykam3 quits (~haykam@static.100.2.21.65.clients.your-server.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-07-09 19:29:42 | → | haykam1 joins (~haykam@static.100.2.21.65.clients.your-server.de) |
| 2021-07-09 19:30:01 | → | Ariakenom joins (~Ariakenom@c83-255-154-140.bredband.tele2.se) |
| 2021-07-09 19:30:35 | × | wallymathieu quits (~wallymath@81-234-151-21-no94.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-07-09 19:34:03 | → | cuz joins (~user@38.140.58.234) |
| 2021-07-09 19:34:51 | × | cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:35:11 | → | cheater joins (~Username@user/cheater) |
| 2021-07-09 19:36:48 | → | Guest62 joins (~Guest62@187.83.249.216.dyn.smithville.net) |
| 2021-07-09 19:37:35 | × | drd quits (~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:39:32 | <Guest62> | so i'm suddenly having issues installing a package with stack on arch. used to work fine, but now when i do `stack install vulkan` in a directory without a project, it takes a few minutes, seems to work and exits gracefully after "Registering library for vulkan-3.6.2..". But import Vulkan.Core10 is always "could not find module" and stack exec |
| 2021-07-09 19:39:32 | <Guest62> | ghc-pkg -- list doesn't have vulkan anywhere |
| 2021-07-09 19:39:38 | <Guest62> | any ideas for what i might be doing wrong? |
| 2021-07-09 19:40:59 | × | isekaijin quits (~pyon@user/pyon) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:41:42 | → | isekaijin joins (~pyon@user/pyon) |
| 2021-07-09 19:43:55 | <boxscape> | Why do I get this error when trying to derive Generic? I feel like I may be missing something obvious... https://paste.tomsmeding.com/6EopZUJE |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:17 | <boxscape> | hm am I importing the wrong module |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:36 | <boxscape> | yes |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:38 | <boxscape> | it's GHC.Generics |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:39 | <boxscape> | thanks |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:44 | × | favonia quits (~favonia@user/favonia) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 2021-07-09 19:44:55 | <lechner> | yeah, that's what i use |
| 2021-07-09 19:46:16 | × | coeus quits (~coeus@b2b-92-50-96-34.unitymedia.biz) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by _coeus!~coeus@250.sub-174-205-176.myvzw.com))) |
| 2021-07-09 19:46:39 | → | coeus joins (~coeus@b2b-92-50-96-34.unitymedia.biz) |
| 2021-07-09 19:47:08 | → | favonia joins (~favonia@user/favonia) |
| 2021-07-09 19:47:38 | <sm> | Guest62 are you sure you're not in a project ? Eg a parent directory ? Try to reproduce in $HOME |
| 2021-07-09 19:48:06 | × | coeus quits (~coeus@b2b-92-50-96-34.unitymedia.biz) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by _coeus!~coeus@250.sub-174-205-176.myvzw.com))) |
| 2021-07-09 19:48:29 | → | coeus_ joins (~coeus@b2b-92-50-96-34.unitymedia.biz) |
| 2021-07-09 19:49:21 | <Guest62> | yeah, same thing. `stack exec ghc` returns 'could not find module', and `stack exec ghc-pkg -- list` still doesn't list vulkan even in ~ |
| 2021-07-09 19:49:37 | × | epolanski quits (uid312403@id-312403.brockwell.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 2021-07-09 19:50:17 | → | drd joins (~drd@2001:b07:a70:9f1f:1562:34de:f50f:77d4) |
| 2021-07-09 19:50:23 | <sm> | Odd, any funny haskell related env vars ? |
| 2021-07-09 19:51:03 | <sm> | Try the install again with increased --verbosity ? |
| 2021-07-09 19:58:46 | × | wqsz7xn quits (~wqsz7xn@202.36.244.28) (Quit: Leaving) |
All times are in UTC.