Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-06-29 12:28:22 | <Athas> | My OpenBSD system contains thousands of system filenames with underscores. |
| 2021-06-29 12:28:32 | → | lavaman joins (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) |
| 2021-06-29 12:28:40 | <tomsmeding> | tdammers: in /usr/lib/modules I have a couple of linux module files that have _ in them |
| 2021-06-29 12:28:55 | <tdammers> | not saying it doesn't happen a lot |
| 2021-06-29 12:29:01 | <tdammers> | just that it's not idiomatic |
| 2021-06-29 12:29:18 | <tdammers> | then again, unix is a mess, so there's that |
| 2021-06-29 12:29:46 | <tomsmeding> | maybe is unidiomaticity (?) has declined over time? |
| 2021-06-29 12:29:52 | <tomsmeding> | s/is/its/ |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:10 | × | tromp quits (~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:21 | <merijn> | All tech is a mess >.> |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:27 | <Athas> | Looking at old Unix filesystem listings, neither underscores nor dashes seemed to be in use. |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:32 | × | nate1 quits (~nate@108-233-125-227.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:43 | <Athas> | Dashes were used for options, which to me would discourage their use in file names. |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:47 | <tdammers> | I think what's happened is that "modern unix culture" is a wild zoo of all sorts of different subcultures and imports, everyone just does whatever they're familiar with |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:58 | <tomsmeding> | ^ |
| 2021-06-29 12:30:59 | <int-e> | Hmm. 20% of the haskell files on my disk have an _ in their name... that's a lot. |
| 2021-06-29 12:31:06 | <tdammers> | *leading* dashes are for options; dashes inside filenames are fine |
| 2021-06-29 12:31:34 | <tdammers> | fun fact though, you *can* make filenames that start with dashes on most *nix filesystems, but getting rid of them again can be tricky |
| 2021-06-29 12:32:10 | <int-e> | . o O ( touch -- -rf ) |
| 2021-06-29 12:32:23 | <[exa]> | sysadmin fun: 1] touch ./-rf\ \~ 2] wait |
| 2021-06-29 12:33:22 | × | lavaman quits (~lavaman@98.38.249.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-06-29 12:33:30 | <int-e> | [exa]: spoiler: the ~ will not expand to $HOME |
| 2021-06-29 12:33:46 | → | pbrisbin joins (~patrick@pool-173-49-147-28.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 2021-06-29 12:34:48 | → | tromp joins (~textual@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) |
| 2021-06-29 12:35:08 | × | v01d4lph4 quits (~v01d4lph4@user/v01d4lph4) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-06-29 12:35:10 | <[exa]> | int-e: it will after the user types it |
| 2021-06-29 12:35:33 | <int-e> | why would... never mind, users are stupid |
| 2021-06-29 12:35:57 | <merijn> | I wish macOS and linux would copy FreeBSD's -I flag on rm |
| 2021-06-29 12:36:04 | <[exa]> | yes that is precisely the design target. |
| 2021-06-29 12:36:16 | <merijn> | So I can just do "alias rm = rm -I" like I have on BSD |
| 2021-06-29 12:37:09 | <merijn> | -I is, like, an infinitely more useful version of -i |
| 2021-06-29 12:37:10 | <[exa]> | ...my gnu rm does -I ? |
| 2021-06-29 12:37:39 | <int-e> | life lesson: 'rm -rf *' and 'cd ..' are not commutative. (I've learned better since...) |
| 2021-06-29 12:37:54 | × | dunkeln quits (~dunkeln@188.71.193.140) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-06-29 12:37:54 | <merijn> | Ah, looks like -I was added to GNU rm |
| 2021-06-29 12:38:02 | <merijn> | Now I just need it on macOS :> |
| 2021-06-29 12:39:00 | <[exa]> | int-e: that's good. :] |
| 2021-06-29 12:40:45 | → | eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:48c3:15b7:84fd:d26e) |
| 2021-06-29 12:41:21 | d4 | is now known as functor |
| 2021-06-29 12:42:44 | × | Guest33 quits (~textual@c-107-4-204-12.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) |
| 2021-06-29 12:45:16 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:48c3:15b7:84fd:d26e) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 2021-06-29 12:45:58 | → | warnz joins (~warnz@2600:1700:77c0:5610:eca1:bc9d:4345:931f) |
| 2021-06-29 12:47:42 | <gensyst> | merijn, i ended up abandoning macos. too much pita. |
| 2021-06-29 12:47:56 | <gensyst> | for haskell, linux "just works". |
| 2021-06-29 12:48:15 | <[exa]> | but the fruity feels! |
| 2021-06-29 12:48:27 | Clint | shudders. |
| 2021-06-29 12:48:29 | × | jneira quits (~jneira@212.8.115.226) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2021-06-29 12:48:33 | <gensyst> | after a few weeks, the ugliness of linux grows on you and you start loving the freedom |
| 2021-06-29 12:48:57 | <Athas> | The GUI ugliness? |
| 2021-06-29 12:49:15 | <gensyst> | yeah, relative to macos (i'm using qubes, which is uglier than most distros) |
| 2021-06-29 12:49:21 | <[exa]> | ....what's ugly on plain black fullscreen console? |
| 2021-06-29 12:49:26 | <merijn> | Athas: I mean, the non-GUI parts are ugly too :p |
| 2021-06-29 12:49:38 | <gensyst> | my main regret now is i didn't do it years ago |
| 2021-06-29 12:49:56 | <merijn> | I'd sooner go back to FreeBSD on the desktop than linux |
| 2021-06-29 12:50:08 | → | fizbin joins (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 2021-06-29 12:51:12 | <gensyst> | merijn, why? |
| 2021-06-29 12:51:13 | <Athas> | [exa]: exactly! Minimalism is a pragmatic solution to lack of aesthetic ability. |
| 2021-06-29 12:51:52 | → | noctuks joins (VLd78TzYRj@user/noctux) |
| 2021-06-29 12:53:04 | <merijn> | gensyst: I hate linux approach to "engineering" (i.e. "we have a broken/unusable interface, rather than fix it lets us introduce a gratuitously backwards incompatible, undocumented, new interface instead of fixing it!") |
| 2021-06-29 12:53:29 | <nshepperd2> | having my computer be partially owned by lennart poettering isn't ideal, but i'd say it's superior to it being fully owned by Apple or Microsoft |
| 2021-06-29 12:53:31 | <merijn> | And 90% of the time that new interface "lol, parse the undocumented string output of /proc or get fucked" |
| 2021-06-29 12:54:33 | <gensyst> | ok.. i haven't run into that issue yet |
| 2021-06-29 12:54:44 | <gensyst> | it's only been a few months though |
| 2021-06-29 12:55:14 | <Athas> | Also, remember that merijn is comparing Linux to the BSDs. |
| 2021-06-29 12:55:31 | <merijn> | Athas: Yes and I will never stop being mad about epoll >.< |
| 2021-06-29 12:55:41 | <Athas> | The BSDs are extremely carefully engineered (for good and bad). Doesn't mean Linux doesn't look pretty good compared to many lesser systems. |
| 2021-06-29 12:56:10 | <merijn> | Hot take: Microsoft's engineering is equal or better to linux is the hill I will die on |
| 2021-06-29 12:56:33 | <merijn> | It's fine to prefer linux because you're politically infatuated with FOSS |
| 2021-06-29 12:56:38 | × | _xor quits (~xor@74.215.46.133) (Quit: brb) |
| 2021-06-29 12:56:44 | <nshepperd2> | -++ |
| 2021-06-29 12:56:54 | <merijn> | But pretending linux somehow has superior engineering is just lunacy |
| 2021-06-29 12:57:49 | <merijn> | And 90% of the complaints about windows here aren't even "poor engineering" but "windows engineers made different design trade-offs that don't fit your posix expectations but aren't inherently bad or inferior" |
| 2021-06-29 12:58:13 | <turlando> | merijn «we have a broken/unusable interface» it's called POSIX and all Unices have it :) |
| 2021-06-29 12:58:34 | <merijn> | Not to say there isn't any suckage in the design of Windows and its engineering. But it's really not more so than linux |
| 2021-06-29 12:58:41 | <merijn> | turlando: Naah |
| 2021-06-29 12:58:57 | <merijn> | turlando: Linux is mostly on the 2nd or 3rd post posix interface for most things >.> |
| 2021-06-29 12:59:17 | <merijn> | turlando: All of which equally broken as posix, just in different ways and without the benefit of at least being portably broken |
| 2021-06-29 12:59:51 | <gensyst> | Are there OSes other than Qubes (Linux) where I can have most docs in an offline qube, so if my browser/irc client get cracked they won't get to my docs? |
| 2021-06-29 13:00:15 | <gensyst> | (That would be a good reason to use Linux, although only because Qubes happens to be Linux) |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:02 | <gensyst> | https://www.qubes-os.org/ |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:04 | <nshepperd2> | but superior engineering is actually bad if it's used to take away choice from users and show them ads |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:07 | <Athas> | gensyst: probably not, since I think Qubes' sandboxing depends on Linux's rather fine-grained (and complicated) isolation support. |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:13 | → | alx741 joins (~alx741@186.178.109.202) |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:22 | <Athas> | _Maybe_ FreeBSD's jails could be used to do something similar, but they are not really built for that. |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:22 | <gensyst> | Athas, yeah i think it's quite the unique beast |
| 2021-06-29 13:01:42 | <merijn> | gensyst: OpenBSDs Theo de Raadt (which is about as paranoid a security person you can find) has given several presentations where he points out that linux is lagging behind windows in terms of security efforts and mitigations |
| 2021-06-29 13:02:17 | <turlando> | To my knowledge most userland software are POSIX client, but a few Linux-specific exceptions. Since it's been brought up before, I'm not a systemd fan (or better, I don't care) but one of the most used argument is that "it's not POSIX compliant". Well, I would call it an advantage given that we're damned to stick to an half-assed interface from the 70s. |
| 2021-06-29 13:02:19 | <merijn> | Athas: Wouldn't even be hard, you could run IRC client/browser in a jail fairly easily |
| 2021-06-29 13:02:39 | <merijn> | Athas: I actually had a setup where browser would run in a jail when I was using FreeBSD as desktop |
| 2021-06-29 13:02:51 | <gensyst> | interesting! |
| 2021-06-29 13:02:57 | → | juhp joins (~juhp@128.106.188.66) |
| 2021-06-29 13:03:00 | <Athas> | merijn: I don't think I would trust the isolation if I ran an X11 client in a jail. |
| 2021-06-29 13:03:16 | <Athas> | I assume Qubes either uses multiple X servers or Wayland (but I don't know). |
| 2021-06-29 13:05:04 | <turlando> | (Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy I can run most of my software on my OpenBSD box, but I think we should get past POXIS and Unix in general, which is a fractal of bad designs) |
| 2021-06-29 13:05:09 | <gensyst> | so these jails are more useful than AppArmor or SELinux from this point of view? |
| 2021-06-29 13:05:43 | <Athas> | What do you mean by "useful"? |
| 2021-06-29 13:06:14 | <Athas> | FreeBSD jails were revolutionary because of how simple they made it to do the right thing, which originally was to create very cheap virtual servers for web hosting purposes. |
| 2021-06-29 13:06:43 | <Athas> | That's generally the BSD approach: a carefully designed and somewhat specialised facility (I don't know how flexible Jails have gotten since, though). |
| 2021-06-29 13:07:00 | <Athas> | The Linux approach is to provide a huge bunch of features that can eventually be combined to achieve various effects. Docker is an example. |
| 2021-06-29 13:07:28 | <Athas> | Compare also OpenBSD's pledge() and Linux's seccomp. |
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