Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2025-11-11 18:50:38 | <EvanR> | you mean if you convert to UTC? |
| 2025-11-11 18:50:42 | <sm> | no! atlantean calendar |
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| 2025-11-11 18:50:49 | <tomsmeding> | anyway you can see the opposite jump here https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2025/03/30?id=1517022#trid1517022 |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:00 | <EvanR> | we lost logs or we will lose logs |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:08 | <tomsmeding> | well the logs are still there in the plain znc logs |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:14 | <tomsmeding> | but the website drops them |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:18 | <EvanR> | nice |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:35 | tomsmeding | checks if they're in the database |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> I'm pretty sure it's impossible, then. |
| 2025-11-11 18:51:52 | <EvanR> | how many haskell programmers does it take to get time and date right |
| 2025-11-11 18:52:25 | <tomsmeding> | well this is a combination of 1. the original author of ircbrowse creating this hideous postgres setup |
| 2025-11-11 18:52:31 | <humasect> | it will be evaluated when necessary |
| 2025-11-11 18:52:36 | <tomsmeding> | and apparently assuming that the server is in UTC |
| 2025-11-11 18:52:43 | <tomsmeding> | and 2. me not doing that |
| 2025-11-11 18:55:25 | × | Zemyla quits (~Zemyla@72.178.108.235) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-11-11 18:56:19 | <tomsmeding> | ok so the logs are there in the znc log files but the import to postgres borks |
| 2025-11-11 18:56:41 | <tomsmeding> | the issue is this: the import to postgres assigns IDs to the events, and those IDs are not necessarily stable when you do a clean re-import of everything |
| 2025-11-11 18:56:55 | <tomsmeding> | and people might have bookmarks to specific events, which have the ID in the URL |
| 2025-11-11 18:57:14 | <tomsmeding> | I have wanted to rewrite this system for years but I never had the motivation to |
| 2025-11-11 18:57:33 | <tomsmeding> | Zemyla: so possible, but rather a nuisancve |
| 2025-11-11 18:58:57 | × | lucabtz quits (~lucabtz@user/lucabtz) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2025-11-11 18:59:50 | <tomsmeding> | another part of the problem is that on a system with system time with DST, znc logs are technically ambiguous since it just contains the HH:MM:SS time for every message |
| 2025-11-11 19:00:26 | <EvanR> | it would need a multi-part migration which does something to make a translation table of old IDs, reimports, then fixes all the IDs |
| 2025-11-11 19:00:27 | <tomsmeding> | so when you switch from summer time to winter time and the clock goes back an hour, you get times between 01:00 and 02:00 twice |
| 2025-11-11 19:01:04 | <tomsmeding> | if there are enough messages you can spot the jump and it's not ambiguous, but if there's, say, only one message in that two-hour slot, it's ambiguous where it is |
| 2025-11-11 19:01:11 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: possibly |
| 2025-11-11 19:01:36 | <EvanR> | if there's only 1 message during the ambiguous period, may it's not that important what time it happened xD |
| 2025-11-11 19:01:40 | <EvanR> | flip a coin |
| 2025-11-11 19:01:45 | <tomsmeding> | that's a point |
| 2025-11-11 19:02:06 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Yeah, you just have to make sure the overlap isn't a problem. |
| 2025-11-11 19:02:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> Very few people will care whether a message took place in the summer 1:30 or the winter 1:30. |
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| 2025-11-11 19:03:26 | <tomsmeding> | it's whether it happened at 01:30 or 02:30 UTC |
| 2025-11-11 19:04:44 | <tomsmeding> | you know what? I'm going to think about this later and you guys will have to live with the current mess a while longer :p |
| 2025-11-11 19:05:23 | <EvanR> | the fascinating problems we put ourselves in |
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| 2025-11-11 19:07:15 | <tomsmeding> | DST should be abolished |
| 2025-11-11 19:08:10 | <tomsmeding> | without DST I could just leave everything as-is and translate on-the-fly when serving the web page |
| 2025-11-11 19:08:55 | <tomsmeding> | in a way it's weird in the first place that ircbrowse has the notion of "day", and that day is whatever matches the system timezone on the server it runs on |
| 2025-11-11 19:09:48 | <tomsmeding> | for me, being in UTC+1/UTC+2, the UTC day would match closely enough with my calendar day that it's intuitive, but if you're, say, in California or in New Zealand, the ircbrowse "day" is something completely weird |
| 2025-11-11 19:10:59 | <tomsmeding> | does anyone here remember what the old ircbrowse, when it was still hosted by its original creator (Chris Done), used as the timezone for events? |
| 2025-11-11 19:11:13 | <EvanR> | yeah day (unless you're talking NASA MJD stuff) is really a localization thing |
| 2025-11-11 19:13:23 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: is this the authoritative reference on what the MJD is? https://core2.gsfc.nasa.gov/time/ Because it defines it as intrinsically linked to a _calendar_ day, with no timezone specified |
| 2025-11-11 19:14:00 | <EvanR> | wow nice css |
| 2025-11-11 19:14:16 | <tomsmeding> | "Last modified 17/3/00" |
| 2025-11-11 19:15:35 | <EvanR> | since MJD is a specific number that I've seen in relation to interplanetary objects I presume it's defined specifically enough to get within the day, otherwise what's the point of the decimals |
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| 2025-11-11 19:15:57 | <EvanR> | now I'm going down a rabbit hole |
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| 2025-11-11 19:18:07 | × | Googulator8 quits (~Googulato@2a01-036d-0106-0180-8127-ba79-55a7-6f29.pool6.digikabel.hu) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2025-11-11 19:18:19 | <tomsmeding> | ok so this table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_day#Variants seems to interpret it as relative to UTC |
| 2025-11-11 19:18:25 | <tomsmeding> | (I just refreshed it) |
| 2025-11-11 19:18:59 | <tomsmeding> | > (floor (0.80278 * 24), floor ((0.80278 * 24 - 19) * 60)) |
| 2025-11-11 19:19:01 | <lambdabot> | (19,16) |
| 2025-11-11 19:19:04 | <EvanR> | wikipedia page has references to noon = noon in UT |
| 2025-11-11 19:19:18 | <tomsmeding> | oh right |
| 2025-11-11 19:19:33 | <tomsmeding> | ok good, so it makes sense |
| 2025-11-11 19:27:30 | <monochrom> | Oh, time leaps in IRC logs? They are awesome, please don't kill them! >:) |
| 2025-11-11 19:27:31 | <EvanR> | (where UT is not exactly equal to UTC but close) |
| 2025-11-11 19:28:04 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: are they? :P |
| 2025-11-11 19:28:55 | <monochrom> | We need to confuse future archaelogists by leaving around records that can be misinterpreted as evidence for we having figured out time travel! |
| 2025-11-11 19:29:29 | × | humasect quits (~humasect@dyn-192-249-132-90.nexicom.net) (Quit: Leaving...) |
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| 2025-11-11 19:30:10 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think this is a particularly convincing exhibit to that end :p |
| 2025-11-11 19:31:04 | <monochrom> | OK OK, s/archaeologists/ufologists/ ! >:D |
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| 2025-11-11 19:37:25 | × | trickard_ quits (~trickard@cpe-62-98-47-163.wireline.com.au) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 2025-11-11 19:40:11 | <gentauro> | EvanR: define "get time and date right" ;) |
| 2025-11-11 19:40:17 | <gentauro> | it's actually not trivial |
| 2025-11-11 19:40:41 | <sm> | he knwos |
| 2025-11-11 19:40:46 | <tomsmeding> | so, many, apparently |
| 2025-11-11 19:41:00 | <gentauro> | sm: everybody does ;) |
| 2025-11-11 19:47:17 | <gentauro> | follow-up question, how many bits do you need to store `date` and `time` right? I vote for 96-bits (32 bits for date and 64 for time) |
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| 2025-11-11 19:56:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> that must be a trick question. The only right answer is to not answer :) |
| 2025-11-11 19:57:10 | <monochrom> | haha |
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| 2025-11-11 19:59:56 | × | ThePenguin quits (~ThePengui@cust-95-80-28-221.csbnet.se) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 2025-11-11 20:07:45 | <darkling> | Number of Planck times since the Big Bang. :) |
| 2025-11-11 20:08:47 | <darkling> | Signed integer, of course. Just in case. |
| 2025-11-11 20:09:23 | <tomsmeding> | so how many bits? :P |
| 2025-11-11 20:10:17 | → | peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@172.222.148.214) |
| 2025-11-11 20:12:23 | <darkling> | Wikipedia says the Universe is about 8*10^60 Planck units old right now, so that's about 204 bits for present use. |
| 2025-11-11 20:13:06 | <monochrom> | I was hoping that 128 would b enough. |
| 2025-11-11 20:13:21 | <monochrom> | It's OK! We can go 512. :) |
| 2025-11-11 20:13:34 | <darkling> | Max number of bits would depend on your favourite theory on the fate of the universe. |
| 2025-11-11 20:14:08 | <monochrom> | Oh I just need a theory on the fate of this civilization. |
| 2025-11-11 20:14:29 | darkling | checks watch |
| 2025-11-11 20:14:34 | <darkling> | About 25 minutes? |
| 2025-11-11 20:15:06 | <monochrom> | You are so generous :) |
| 2025-11-11 20:15:12 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: if you use planck time you already lose about 146 bits just describing one second |
| 2025-11-11 20:16:17 | <tomsmeding> | ok 144, more precisely |
| 2025-11-11 20:18:26 | <haskellbridge> | <Zemyla> In 10^200 years, all protons and neutrons in the universe will have likely decayed. Unless you plan on porting your data to diffuse electron-positron-photon clouds, I wouldn't worry about it. |
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All times are in UTC.