Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2021-07-24 19:39:11 | <haowenl> | Hi, I'm learning Haskell and really like what it's offering. But I looked over the mailing lists and haskell-prime isn't exactly comforting. Is Haskell2020 dead? Why is it stuck? Is there anything I can do to help? |
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| 2021-07-24 19:41:43 | <maerwald> | I used to heavily vote for a new standard, but I'm convinced at this point that it would just be Haskell2010 + a selection of existing GHC extensions. Which is rather uninteresting imo. |
| 2021-07-24 19:42:34 | <maerwald> | Gradual improvement often causes blindness. A new standard should consider the language as a whole. That's gonna be hard with all the stakeholders. |
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| 2021-07-24 19:44:02 | <sm> | the lack of progress is a sign of success :) |
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| 2021-07-24 19:44:32 | <maerwald> | It gives GHC a monopoly |
| 2021-07-24 19:45:43 | <maerwald> | And even if there was a new standard, you couldn't write a compiler that can build 10% of hackage or run it correctly without mimicing GHC |
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| 2021-07-24 19:46:39 | <maerwald> | Then a new standard would just become a list of sanctioned GHC extensions... which we already have |
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| 2021-07-24 19:47:41 | <maerwald> | https://youtu.be/mjyibLz7jso here's a panel discussion with SPJ and Ben, they also talked about the Haskell2020 thing |
| 2021-07-24 19:47:46 | <davean> | sm: I mean theres all the type issues left unsolves |
| 2021-07-24 19:48:32 | <davean> | sm: A lack of a new standard means we have no progres on the huge holes holding stuff back |
| 2021-07-24 19:49:55 | <sm> | I'm not saying it's good. I do think there'll be some kind of new standard(s) eventually |
| 2021-07-24 19:50:07 | <davean> | "sm the lack of progress is a sign of success :)" |
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| 2021-07-24 19:50:18 | <maerwald> | DT would need a new standard imo |
| 2021-07-24 19:50:18 | <davean> | I have to strongly and directly disagree with that statement |
| 2021-07-24 19:50:26 | <sm> | fine |
| 2021-07-24 19:50:33 | <maerwald> | I'm puzzled why anyone would consider merging something like DT without a new standard |
| 2021-07-24 19:50:42 | <davean> | We have huge holes on even like "what is a multiparameter type class even?" |
| 2021-07-24 19:51:32 | <davean> | and with the fuck ups in lack of scoping on type variables, all the extensions are super messy |
| 2021-07-24 19:52:13 | <davean> | sm: we don't have a new standard because no one knows how to approach the work |
| 2021-07-24 19:52:51 | <maerwald> | it might also not be funny to create one without a good picture of what it entails for GHC |
| 2021-07-24 19:53:04 | <maerwald> | or it could be funny, depends on your interpretation |
| 2021-07-24 19:53:14 | <davean> | maerwald: well thats some of the stuff that comes up, people aren't even sure what GHC does |
| 2021-07-24 19:53:20 | <maerwald> | :D |
| 2021-07-24 19:53:27 | <davean> | so I have no idea how sm thinks things are fine |
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| 2021-07-24 19:54:12 | <davean> | Maybe that was sarcasm I missed? |
| 2021-07-24 19:54:32 | <davean> | If things were fine we'd have a new standard |
| 2021-07-24 19:54:43 | <davean> | We don't because we have unresolved problems |
| 2021-07-24 19:55:17 | <maerwald> | it's cooler to work on DT than on those problems :p |
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| 2021-07-24 19:55:24 | <davean> | Yes |
| 2021-07-24 19:55:42 | <sm> | davean: i have already clarified I'm not saying that. it was a throwaway comment, try a different interpretation of it maybe |
| 2021-07-24 19:55:48 | <h98> | what's the issue with multiparamtypeclasses? |
| 2021-07-24 19:57:11 | <davean> | sm: I tried, all I got was "sarcasm maybe?" |
| 2021-07-24 19:57:44 | <sm> | a big widely used language with many stakeholders has achieved success on some level, and these are obviously harder to change |
| 2021-07-24 19:59:06 | <davean> | sm: Sure I don't think stakeholders are what jammed it |
| 2021-07-24 19:59:55 | <geekosaur> | I don't think what davean is talking about has reached the point where stakeholders can say anything about it yet |
| 2021-07-24 20:00:33 | <sm> | I'm interested in your thoughts! no need to keep pinging me specifically, it's not my fault :) |
| 2021-07-24 20:01:22 | <davean> | geekosaur: right |
| 2021-07-24 20:01:28 | <maerwald> | I'd be interested to find out whether HF has interest in a new standard |
| 2021-07-24 20:01:42 | <davean> | geekosaur: exactly that, stakeholders are what come after you have a base, Haskell2010 did the easy stuff |
| 2021-07-24 20:01:54 | <davean> | everything to move forward after H2010 needed to solve technical issues |
| 2021-07-24 20:03:29 | <davean> | I mean we'd have liked cool stuff too |
| 2021-07-24 20:04:28 | <davean> | stuff died a few years ago, so it isn't all front of mind for me anymore |
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| 2021-07-24 20:05:54 | <maerwald> | why did it die? |
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| 2021-07-24 20:06:18 | <davean> | maerwald: HF I think has a long way to go before it could move the needle on that, a new standard is skilled work - certainly project management was an issue in Haskell2010 failing but yah |
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| 2021-07-24 20:06:50 | <davean> | maerwald: uh, I don't think I'm qualified to say, but it sure seemed like no one was on top of doing the work - sorta like the CLC? |
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| 2021-07-24 20:07:11 | <davean> | Of course the CLC gave us random 1.2 |
| 2021-07-24 20:07:14 | <geekosaur> | part of it was lack of interest in formalizing what ghc was doing, which requires figuring ut what ghc is actually doing |
| 2021-07-24 20:07:17 | <davean> | so ... maybe I prefer no one be on top of doing the work |
| 2021-07-24 20:07:45 | <geekosaur> | and then perhaps fixing it |
| 2021-07-24 20:07:50 | <davean> | geekosaur: I was debating the description between uninterested, unmotivated, and unorganized |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:00 | <davean> | I think there was a bit of all 3 |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:04 | <davean> | varying by party |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:10 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:12 | <davean> | which is part of why I mention project management |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:39 | <davean> | If it was just uninterested that would be easy to state |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:56 | <maerwald> | I can relate to unorganized. It's kind of a community thing, imo. |
| 2021-07-24 20:08:58 | <davean> | Also, somewhat easier to fix, insert grad students, get results |
| 2021-07-24 20:09:34 | <geekosaur> | depends on how many papers they can get out of it, which was one of the worries I recall |
| 2021-07-24 20:10:01 | <davean> | Yah, some things are worth doing sans papers, and I'd expect it to produce at least one, but who knows. Thats part of the motivational issue portion |
| 2021-07-24 20:10:20 | <davean> | but also you need people to check your results, approve of decisions ... |
| 2021-07-24 20:10:24 | <davean> | all that stuff also was lacking |
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| 2021-07-24 20:11:14 | <davean> | A new standard is a highly accademic topic, esp for Haskell, and well, there aren't enough serious concerns to force it |
| 2021-07-24 20:11:45 | <davean> | C++ gets a new standard because theres enough players in the game its worth it to argue the possitions |
| 2021-07-24 20:12:02 | <maerwald> | No amount of standards can fix C++ :p |
| 2021-07-24 20:12:10 | <davean> | Haskell has a giant gorila in the corner pretending to be friendly and we just all kinda try to accept it is because its easier than finding out its breaking our toys |
| 2021-07-24 20:12:22 | <davean> | maerwald: I never said a C++ standard would fix anything :) |
| 2021-07-24 20:12:43 | <davean> | You look at the gorilla to closely and you might have your arms pulled off |
| 2021-07-24 20:13:23 | <maerwald> | yeah, that's the thing... feature creep standards aren't useful |
| 2021-07-24 20:14:01 | <davean> | arms, they're really just kinda optional accessories, right? |
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