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2026-01-22 22:42:11 <jackdk> gentauro: There were a bunch of people who worked on it. I wasn't there for the history but Twan Van Laarhoven invented the `type Lens s a = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f a) -> s -> f s` form: https://www.twanvl.nl/blog/haskell/cps-functional-references . The type-changing form `Lens s t a b` came after someone (don't remember who) wrote a lens for `_1` without putting a type signature on it, and GHC inferred with a more general type.
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2026-01-22 22:46:43 <EvanR> strive for the most general type signature, no not generaler --einstein
2026-01-22 22:47:06 <EvanR> but not* uhg
2026-01-22 22:47:14 <EvanR> also einstein
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2026-01-22 22:47:20 <jackdk> gentauro: also https://github.com/ekmett/lens/wiki/History-of-Lenses . But the SPJ talk is the most approachable introduction I've seen, and does a decent job of motivating the VL form
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2026-01-22 23:02:18 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2026-01-22 23:03:18 × __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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2026-01-22 23:14:16 <jackdk> Perhaps most approachable free intro. Optics By Example is worth the price.
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2026-01-22 23:20:24 <chromoblob> how the fuck are you supposed to write Haskell without recursion
2026-01-22 23:20:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2026-01-22 23:20:52 <chromoblob> and how is Haskell without recursion supposed to be useful
2026-01-22 23:23:28 <geekosaur> I think tht usually means without _explicit_ recursion, e.g. using folds/traverses
2026-01-22 23:28:53 × zanetti quits (~zanetti@2804:7f0:9b80:2edc:c121:46e7:c35f:46cf) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2026-01-22 23:34:18 <jreicher> chromoblob: who's saying you should write Haskell without recursion?
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2026-01-23 00:10:11 <EvanR> the answer the question, certain patterns of recursion can be encapulsated in combinators that magically have the same effect
2026-01-23 00:10:13 <EvanR> to
2026-01-23 00:10:31 <EvanR> e.g. map and fold
2026-01-23 00:10:42 <EvanR> they can't do everything, but the more such tools you have the more you can do
2026-01-23 00:10:58 <EvanR> but sometimes explicit recursion makes more sense
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2026-01-23 00:16:39 <probie> how are imperative languages without goto supposed to be useful?
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2026-01-23 01:05:55 <systemfault> for loops/while/etc...
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2026-01-23 01:08:40 <jackdk> I think probie is asking rhetorically, to provide an analogous question/answer pair to chromoblob/EvanR.
2026-01-23 01:08:58 <EvanR> lol
2026-01-23 01:09:57 <EvanR> clearly systemfault is answering in such a way intentionally to highlight the irony
2026-01-23 01:10:53 <EvanR> this is what it's like in the tiplerian omega point simulation where everyone already knows everything anyone could talk about
2026-01-23 01:11:35 <systemfault> Yeah... that said, I don't know what a tiplerian omega point simulation is...
2026-01-23 01:13:14 <geekosaur> sounds to me like someone's been tippling on physics 🙂
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