Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2025-11-22 17:19:30 | <mreh> | I can't find a searchable log to see if there was any discussion of it |
| 2025-11-22 17:22:32 | <mreh> | I dont understand the specifics of it, but I think it was called partly to assert some variant that the type couldn't prove. Wish I had more insight. |
| 2025-11-22 17:22:52 | <EvanR> | what language is unwrap |
| 2025-11-22 17:23:01 | <gmg> | Rust? |
| 2025-11-22 17:23:09 | <EvanR> | gross |
| 2025-11-22 17:23:32 | <EvanR> | sounds like they were thinking of burritos when they named it |
| 2025-11-22 17:23:40 | <yushyin> | xD |
| 2025-11-22 17:24:07 | <mreh> | EvanR, gmg, yes Rust |
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| 2025-11-22 17:52:18 | <monochrom> | I think I remember now, Rust's equivalent of our Maybe type has an unwrap() meaning our fromJust. |
| 2025-11-22 17:53:09 | <monochrom> | This isn't PR for static typing (Haskell can do the same thing) unless you have dependent typing in mind. |
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| 2025-11-22 17:54:42 | <EvanR> | it is PR for logic |
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| 2025-11-22 17:55:03 | <EvanR> | unwrap is illegal unless you have a possibly invisible proof that it's not Nothing or whatever it is in rust |
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| 2025-11-22 17:55:43 | <monochrom> | I can stand with that. :) |
| 2025-11-22 17:55:45 | <EvanR> | if you managed to encode all this with dependent types it's not invisible |
| 2025-11-22 17:55:55 | <EvanR> | which may scare small children |
| 2025-11-22 17:56:55 | <EvanR> | but that does call into question the "safety" of rust doesn't it |
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| 2025-11-22 17:58:20 | <monochrom> | They never claimed safety from partial functions. They only claimed memory safety such as from dangling pointers and double-free. |
| 2025-11-22 17:59:41 | <monochrom> | "safety", "security", "OOP" are some of the most polymorphic words people use to mean whatever they don't tell you. |
| 2025-11-22 18:00:47 | <mreh> | you make good points, but most people aren't going to see it that way |
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| 2025-11-22 18:01:11 | <mreh> | anyway, I just came to see if people had perspective in a language I understood better |
| 2025-11-22 18:01:23 | <monochrom> | It's why I'm pessimistic and cynical about humanity altogether. :) |
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| 2025-11-22 18:02:28 | <mreh> | I think pushing hard for Rust to replace mature systems has rather backfired in recent weeks. Make me appreciate this community even more. |
| 2025-11-22 18:02:31 | <monochrom> | https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/pessimisms.html enjoy :) |
| 2025-11-22 18:02:32 | <mreh> | Makes* |
| 2025-11-22 18:03:02 | <EvanR> | the invisible proofs thing is a thing I learned in Idris that helps in C. But in rust they think they have nothing to learn from C, and I saw that I learned from everything |
| 2025-11-22 18:03:13 | <monochrom> | As in, you appreciate that we don't push hard for Haskell? :) |
| 2025-11-22 18:03:48 | <EvanR> | in fact in helps in any language that allows bogus code |
| 2025-11-22 18:03:54 | <EvanR> | including haskell |
| 2025-11-22 18:04:14 | <mreh> | monochrom: seen the "Avoid success at all costs" video from SPJ? |
| 2025-11-22 18:04:23 | <monochrom> | Actually no. |
| 2025-11-22 18:05:04 | <mreh> | I think he makes some good points about trying to make a language with mass appeal |
| 2025-11-22 18:06:04 | <EvanR> | I remember one where he shows a graph of programming language lifetimes |
| 2025-11-22 18:06:12 | <EvanR> | most die before having more than 1 user |
| 2025-11-22 18:06:27 | <EvanR> | but some get to the point of "not being allowed to die" because too much code was written in them |
| 2025-11-22 18:06:40 | <monochrom> | But I agree about being hesistant to replace mature systems. Even when it's a good idea, it needs to be well planned out with multiple backup plans. |
| 2025-11-22 18:07:17 | <mreh> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re96UgMk6GQ I think it was this talk where he coined that phrase |
| 2025-11-22 18:07:32 | <EvanR> | the argument to replace C with rust usually involves how bad people are at writing C code |
| 2025-11-22 18:07:39 | <mreh> | lol |
| 2025-11-22 18:07:40 | <EvanR> | but more and more it sounds like an argument against people |
| 2025-11-22 18:07:54 | <mreh> | yeah |
| 2025-11-22 18:08:06 | <mreh> | this incident rather torpedos that argument |
| 2025-11-22 18:08:07 | <monochrom> | I agree about being against people, at least most people. |
| 2025-11-22 18:09:43 | <EvanR> | if it takes 40 years to get good at writing code, maybe that's bad. And the goal is to do something to bring kids up to speed in 10 years or 5 years. But rust doesn't seem to have that in the design |
| 2025-11-22 18:10:59 | <monochrom> | For example, Dennis Ritchie and Alan Kay are extremely smart people, so when they say unsafe unchecked languages like C and Lisp work great for them, sure. But when they say it will also work for the rest of us because "oh-so flexible, oh-so unleash your creativity" I say no, the rest of us need at least static type checking. |
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| 2025-11-22 18:11:55 | <monochrom> | Generally the problem with opinion leaders is that their opinions work great for themselves because they are so smart. Not so great for the rest of us. |
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| 2025-11-22 18:13:16 | <mauke> | I know a lot of people who would take issue with "need at least static type checking" (and calling Lisp "unsafe") |
| 2025-11-22 18:13:51 | <monochrom> | I'm sure. Of course they bought Ritchie's and Kay's opinion. |
| 2025-11-22 18:14:18 | <monochrom> | Because Ritchie and Kay are opinion leaders. Everyone wants to follow opinion leaders. |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:01 | <monochrom> | You have heard "history is written by the victors". But have you also considered: Success stories are written by victors. |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:15 | <mreh> | It's quite lucrative to follow the herd |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:40 | <monochrom> | Even more sinister if you think about it. |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:43 | <glguy> | monochrom: I've heard of "survivorship bias" |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:46 | <EvanR> | history is written by the victors, except in the US south, but that's another story |
| 2025-11-22 18:15:55 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 2025-11-22 18:16:29 | <Franciman> | who is Victor who write all this stories? :P |
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| 2025-11-22 18:16:54 | <glguy> | That'd be fun to get a history book with two authors having the first name Victor |
| 2025-11-22 18:17:19 | <monochrom> | haha let me search on Amazon... |
| 2025-11-22 18:17:24 | <mreh> | aren't vectors why people chose to write Rust in the first place? |
| 2025-11-22 18:17:35 | <Franciman> | lol |
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| 2025-11-22 18:18:17 | <monochrom> | "The Second World Wars: How the First Global Conflict Was Fought and Won" Victor Davis Hanson |
| 2025-11-22 18:18:34 | <monochrom> | literally all of: history, won, victor |
| 2025-11-22 18:18:37 | <Franciman> | lol |
| 2025-11-22 18:18:58 | <monochrom> | Oh need two Victors. OK, searching... |
| 2025-11-22 18:20:03 | <Franciman> | lolol |
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| 2025-11-22 18:23:31 | <monochrom> | OK Rufus says it can't find one history book with two Victors. |
| 2025-11-22 18:24:06 | <monochrom> | (And me, I clicked on 10 candidate books, then gave up. Sorry!) |
| 2025-11-22 18:24:30 | <Franciman> | we had fun, thanks |
| 2025-11-22 18:24:31 | <glguy> | maybe an llm could haluciate one for you |
| 2025-11-22 18:24:52 | <int-e> | "AI shopping assistant" |
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