Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-07-07 07:40:52 | <tomsmeding> | was it? |
| 2021-07-07 07:40:55 | <dibblego> | as well as: not a helpful lie |
| 2021-07-07 07:41:21 | <tomsmeding> | ah I see I read the conversation wrong |
| 2021-07-07 07:41:55 | → | ubert joins (~Thunderbi@p2e5a50e5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2021-07-07 07:42:37 | <Axman6> | English needs more types |
| 2021-07-07 07:42:51 | <tomsmeding> | then it would be inconvenient to speak :p |
| 2021-07-07 07:43:01 | <tomsmeding> | we need more domain specific languages |
| 2021-07-07 07:43:11 | × | Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-07-07 07:43:15 | <Hecate> | I reckon these are called Jargons |
| 2021-07-07 07:43:16 | <Hecate> | :P |
| 2021-07-07 07:43:20 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 2021-07-07 07:44:11 | <tomsmeding> | Axman6: related: lojban |
| 2021-07-07 07:44:39 | → | fizbin joins (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 2021-07-07 07:45:45 | → | trcc joins (~trcc@users-1190.st.net.au.dk) |
| 2021-07-07 07:46:57 | × | Schrostfutz quits (~Schrostfu@schettlerdck.tkn.tu-berlin.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-07-07 07:47:51 | × | trcc quits (~trcc@users-1190.st.net.au.dk) (Client Quit) |
| 2021-07-07 07:48:52 | <DigitalKiwi> | but nobody would want to talk to you then |
| 2021-07-07 07:49:14 | × | fizbin quits (~fizbin@c-73-33-197-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 2021-07-07 07:49:30 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://xkcd.com/191/ |
| 2021-07-07 07:49:38 | <tomsmeding> | just means that the conversations you do have are very efficient ;) |
| 2021-07-07 07:50:06 | → | acidjnk_new joins (~acidjnk@p200300d0c72b9519e1b6d7c282fb2b66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 2021-07-07 07:54:58 | × | mpt quits (~tom@2a02:908:1862:49e0::8) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2021-07-07 07:57:35 | <sshine> | tomsmeding, I've found that Chinese is a framework designed for having domain-specific sub-languages. |
| 2021-07-07 07:58:21 | <sshine> | tomsmeding, the number of times I've heard one Chinese person say "You can't say that." and the thing was something another Chinese person suggested, are plentiful. |
| 2021-07-07 07:58:36 | <nshepperd> | jargons are good because they avoid false friends |
| 2021-07-07 07:59:03 | × | kammka38 quits (~kammka@188.27.129.10) (Quit: Client closed) |
| 2021-07-07 08:00:26 | <nshepperd> | (another bit of jargon: 'false friend' - a foreign word that looks like a word you already know but means something different and confuses students) |
| 2021-07-07 08:02:17 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) |
| 2021-07-07 08:03:50 | <DigitalKiwi> | Some thirty people gathered to celebrate the birthday of the host. After a few bottles of vodka were imbibed, the tongues got loose, and the guests started telling political jokes. Through laughter, a voice sounded, "Comrades, please, it's too noisy. In such a noise, I can't hear the jokes. I am writing it down, you know." |
| 2021-07-07 08:03:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | A man sitting next to the one who's writing down, says admiringly, "How do you manage to write down that fast?" |
| 2021-07-07 08:03:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | "Oh, I'm writing down only the initials." |
| 2021-07-07 08:04:17 | × | ubert quits (~Thunderbi@p2e5a50e5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-07-07 08:06:56 | → | Taren joins (~Taren@port-92-196-211-46.dynamic.as20676.net) |
| 2021-07-07 08:07:22 | → | ptr_frac7al joins (~longlong@user/ptr-frac7al/x-0038398) |
| 2021-07-07 08:07:38 | <[exa]> | DigitalKiwi: I'm adding you to the list. :] |
| 2021-07-07 08:08:25 | <Hecate> | hahahaha |
| 2021-07-07 08:08:33 | <Hecate> | I love that in itself it's a political joke |
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| 2021-07-07 08:11:17 | <DigitalKiwi> | DigitalKiwi Identified Mail |
| 2021-07-07 08:13:46 | × | ptr_frac7al quits (~longlong@user/ptr-frac7al/x-0038398) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
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| 2021-07-07 08:19:55 | → | Lord_of_Life_ joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) |
| 2021-07-07 08:21:58 | <zincy__> | Is this correct thinking... |
| 2021-07-07 08:22:09 | → | ahdyt joins (~ahdyt@103.105.35.88) |
| 2021-07-07 08:22:22 | <zincy__> | Haskell has side effects but they are modelled differently from mainstream languages |
| 2021-07-07 08:22:37 | × | Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 2021-07-07 08:22:37 | Lord_of_Life_ | is now known as Lord_of_Life |
| 2021-07-07 08:23:40 | <veverak> | seems ok |
| 2021-07-07 08:23:43 | <Hecate> | zincy__: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/14638-cyberspace-a-consensual-hallucination-experienced-daily-by-billions-of-legitimate |
| 2021-07-07 08:24:10 | <[exa]> | zincy__: "haskell provides a way to describe impure computation" |
| 2021-07-07 08:24:13 | <ahdyt> | how's the haskell cafe? |
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| 2021-07-07 08:24:59 | <zincy__> | [exa]: I like that |
| 2021-07-07 08:25:05 | → | raehik joins (~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 2021-07-07 08:25:05 | <[exa]> | zincy__: (I'm feeling literally `unsafe` saying that haskell has side effects) |
| 2021-07-07 08:25:12 | <Hecate> | "Side-effects" in Haskell are a consensual hallucination because while every operation produces side effects at one level or another, we have decided that interactions with IO devices (network, filesystem, rng) are impure |
| 2021-07-07 08:25:47 | → | ptr_frac7al joins (~longlong@user/ptr-frac7al/x-0038398) |
| 2021-07-07 08:25:51 | <zincy__> | Yeah I read somewhere it wasn't that impurity was forbidden from Haskell it just wasn't added in the first place |
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| 2021-07-07 08:26:20 | <Hecate> | zincy__: by lack of a nice way to do things (Monads) at first, but it was research in progress, not just an after-thought |
| 2021-07-07 08:26:25 | <[exa]> | Hecate: seems they somehow don't accept thinking in a model |
| 2021-07-07 08:26:36 | <Hecate> | [exa]: who's 'they'? |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:05 | → | dunj3 joins (~dunj3@2001:16b8:3020:e900:566b:618c:a738:2a84) |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:05 | <DigitalKiwi> | primary side-effect of haskell is making me miserable using other languages ;( |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:06 | <sshine> | I suppose another view of IO is that it's a garbage bin of non-categorised effects. so side-effects vs. effects are when we have no way of quantifying what effect was made, and what its imprint on our model of the state was. no? |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:37 | <Hecate> | hmm |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:45 | <sshine> | IO = all the effects we can't account for (i.e. side-effects) |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:47 | <ahdyt> | Hecate I want a Monad m please? |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:48 | <[exa]> | Hecate: the non-hallucinating people (sorry I was a bit under-specific :D ) |
| 2021-07-07 08:27:53 | <zincy__> | I feel as though "getting" side effects in Haskell by being able to think in models serves as a great filter between theory allergic and theory loving coders |
| 2021-07-07 08:28:03 | Hecate | gives ahdyt a Monad m |
| 2021-07-07 08:28:11 | <Hecate> | [exa]: eh :) |
| 2021-07-07 08:28:58 | <ahdyt> | I think side effect isn't observable effect, hence called side effect? it's just unexpected? |
| 2021-07-07 08:29:54 | → | leah2 joins (~leah@vuxu.org) |
| 2021-07-07 08:30:09 | × | cjb quits (~cjb@user/cjb) (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.0.50) |
| 2021-07-07 08:30:21 | <zincy__> | Depends what you mean by *observable* |
| 2021-07-07 08:30:36 | <Hecate> | observability is *something else* |
| 2021-07-07 08:30:44 | × | ptr_frac7al quits (~longlong@user/ptr-frac7al/x-0038398) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 2021-07-07 08:31:17 | <zincy__> | maybe change the word observable for external |
| 2021-07-07 08:31:48 | <Hecate> | Let's all read this stackoverflow answer before venturing further:; https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/21265 |
| 2021-07-07 08:32:00 | <sshine> | ahdyt, at least not predictably. 'setDate :: UTCDate -> IO ()' could be measured with 'getDate :: IO UTCDate', but you'd never know if that was the full extent from the type. |
| 2021-07-07 08:32:28 | <sshine> | Hecate, thanks :) |
| 2021-07-07 08:34:41 | <zincy__> | Wow this is an amazing answer |
| 2021-07-07 08:34:52 | <Hecate> | isn't it? |
| 2021-07-07 08:34:55 | <zincy__> | So a side effect can be all of the above |
| 2021-07-07 08:35:11 | <zincy__> | internal/external observable/non-observable |
| 2021-07-07 08:35:28 | <zincy__> | I feel like my thinking on the subject just entered a new level of clarity |
| 2021-07-07 08:36:13 | <Hecate> | yeah, when I said that's a collective, consensual hallucination, it's because we took all of Haskell's execution semantics, separated it from what we don't care about (in the context of those semantics), and labeled those things "side effects" |
| 2021-07-07 08:36:16 | <zincy__> | So is purity relative according to the semantics of the program? |
| 2021-07-07 08:36:32 | <zincy__> | impurity means outside the model of the program? |
| 2021-07-07 08:36:54 | <Hecate> | rather the model of the language |
| 2021-07-07 08:36:59 | <zincy__> | yeah |
| 2021-07-07 08:37:11 | <zincy__> | Thanks so much for this insight |
| 2021-07-07 08:37:35 | <Hecate> | zincy__: there are ways to annotate your functions with labels such as "This functions is doing DB operations, this function is sending missiles" |
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