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Logs: liberachat/#haskell

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2026-04-07 07:15:00 → Square2 joins (~Square4@user/square)
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2026-04-07 08:58:27 <ski> "if the argument is zero-size, does it exist?" -- yes
2026-04-07 09:00:51 × sm__ quits (~sm@66.8.200.171) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2026-04-07 09:06:21 <gentauro> ski: empty set?
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2026-04-07 10:20:34 <probie> Without a zero-size argument, GHC can't produce code to `launchMissiles` (or whatever your preferred obviously side-effecting action is)
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2026-04-07 10:48:58 × mniip quits (mniip@libera/staff-emeritus/mniip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2026-04-07 10:54:15 <ski> gentauro : no, singleton set/type
2026-04-07 10:54:28 × craunts795335385 quits (~craunts@152.32.99.2) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2026-04-07 10:54:44 <ski> empty set/type would represent a computation which does not return
2026-04-07 10:55:35 → craunts795335385 joins (~craunts@152.32.99.2)
2026-04-07 10:56:19 <ski> two-logarithm of number of possible values, gives (rounding up) number of bits to represent all the values (assuming a representation using the same number of bits, corresponding to considering each possible value equally likely/important)
2026-04-07 10:56:36 <ski> > logBase 2 256
2026-04-07 10:56:38 <lambdabot> 8.0
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2026-04-07 10:56:53 <ski> for `256' values in a `Word8', you need eight bits
2026-04-07 10:56:55 <ski> > logBase 2 2
2026-04-07 10:56:57 <lambdabot> 1.0
2026-04-07 10:57:07 <ski> for `2' values, in a `Bool', you need one bit
2026-04-07 10:57:12 <ski> > logBase 2 1
2026-04-07 10:57:13 <lambdabot> 0.0
2026-04-07 10:57:40 <ski> for one single possible value, in a singleton type (like `()'), you need zero bits
2026-04-07 10:57:57 <ski> then boxing, and non-strictness, adds overhead over this
2026-04-07 10:58:08 <ski> > logBase 2 0
2026-04-07 10:58:09 <lambdabot> -Infinity
2026-04-07 10:58:23 <int-e> (give me an element of the empty set and I'll compress all your data)
2026-04-07 10:59:00 <ski> for an empty type, the same formula gives negative infinity number of bits .. but here the reasoning breaks down. since there is no value in the type, you can't represent it, so the question of how many bits it takes doesn't come up
2026-04-07 10:59:35 <ski> for a singleton type, there's no need to represent distinctions, so you need zero bits, so you don't need to reserve memory in RAM, or a register
2026-04-07 10:59:41 <ski> hehe, int-e
2026-04-07 11:00:26 × Igloo quits (~ian@81.2.99.210) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-04-07 11:00:34 <ski> in Haskell (ignoring non-strictness), `Void' (not to be confused with the `void' of C,C++,Java,C#, which is more like `()' in Haskell) would be an empty type
2026-04-07 11:00:53 <ski> data Void -- zero alternative consstructors given
2026-04-07 11:01:02 <ski> and then you can define
2026-04-07 11:01:05 → mniip joins (mniip@libera/staff-emeritus/mniip)
2026-04-07 11:01:06 <ski> void :: Void -> a
2026-04-07 11:01:13 <ski> void v = case v of {}
2026-04-07 11:01:37 <ski> since there's no possible values, you need to give zero branches in the `case'-`of'
2026-04-07 11:03:01 <ski> `Void' can be occasionally useful, in Haskell, if you have a parameterized type `F', and you're using it as `F Int', `F [String]' or whatever, but sometimes you don't want to allow any value of type `a' in a value of type `F a' (presumably there are values which have zero `a's), and then you can use `F Void'
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2026-04-07 11:03:32 <ski> @hoogle exitWith
2026-04-07 11:03:33 <lambdabot> System.Exit exitWith :: ExitCode -> IO a
2026-04-07 11:03:33 <lambdabot> Protolude exitWith :: ExitCode -> IO a
2026-04-07 11:03:33 <lambdabot> Relude.Lifted.Exit exitWith :: MonadIO m => ExitCode -> m a
2026-04-07 11:04:30 <ski> `exitWith' could have had type `ExitCode -> IO Void', would have served the same purpose, showing that it does not return (monadically) normally. the same would be the case for throwing an I/O exception
2026-04-07 11:04:52 <ski> @hoogle throwIO
2026-04-07 11:04:53 <lambdabot> Control.Exception throwIO :: (HasCallStack, Exception e) => e -> IO a
2026-04-07 11:04:53 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base throwIO :: (HasCallStack, Exception e) => e -> IO a
2026-04-07 11:04:53 <lambdabot> GHC.IO throwIO :: (HasCallStack, Exception e) => e -> IO a
2026-04-07 11:06:07 <ski> but, then you'd need to use `void' above (called `absurd' in `Data.Void'), to be able to invoke it in any context, e.g. in a branch that should abort, while another branch returns some value of some particular type (distinct from `Void')
2026-04-07 11:09:12 <ski> .. i did a cooperative concurrency monad thing, where i could fork off a (user-level) thread. i wanted the spawned thread to always end by invoking an operation `endThread'. at first (iirc) i used `endThread :: M a' and `forkThread :: M a -> M ()', but i had some `undefined's sprinkled through the implementation of the operations, which i wanted to remove
2026-04-07 11:09:44 × somemathguy quits (~somemathg@user/somemathguy) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2026-04-07 11:09:53 <ski> so, i changed to `endThread :: M Void' and `forkThread :: M Void -> M ()', which allowed me to confidently then remove the `undefined's
2026-04-07 11:10:54 <gentauro> ski: is there a way to "enforce" non-usage of `undefined` in a code base?
2026-04-07 11:11:20 <ski> another example. you can e.g. make a type `Expr var', for representing some kind of expressions, where `var' is a type of free variable identifiers. in that case, `Expr Void' means an expression with no (free) variables
2026-04-07 11:12:02 <ski> i think there's some tool to look for potential problems with partial operations (of which `undefined' is a blatant case), but i forgot the name, gentauro
2026-04-07 11:15:10 <gentauro> hmmmm
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