Logs: liberachat/#haskell
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| 2025-11-14 02:23:55 | <jackdk> | Maybe look up Alexis King's work on eff? |
| 2025-11-14 02:24:37 | <jreicher> | Yeah I did. That's one of the first introductions to it all I had. |
| 2025-11-14 02:24:55 | <jreicher> | But I couldn't find her spending much time on shift/reset. It was more about prompt/control and then prompt/control0 |
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| 2025-11-14 02:44:22 | <monochrom> | jreicher: My https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#shift-reset (or the whole thing) |
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| 2025-11-14 02:55:13 | <jreicher> | OK, so the exercises you give there can be done in terms of shift/reset. In your experience is shift/reset "usually" enough for "most" situations? (I realise that's a vague question) |
| 2025-11-14 02:55:34 | <jreicher> | monochrom: ^ |
| 2025-11-14 02:55:35 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 2025-11-14 02:56:19 | <jreicher> | That's interesting. I couldn't tell for sure from the "theoretical" difference between static and dynamic, but it seemed to me it would be. |
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| 2025-11-14 02:59:03 | <monochrom> | I may be wrong in saying "lexically scoped". If you define "foo = shift ...", then it is foo's call sites that determines the corresponding reset. That is dynamic rather than static. |
| 2025-11-14 03:00:11 | <monochrom> | (In the same sense as: If you define "bar = x + 1", and if it is bar's call site that determines what x means, that is dynamic scoping.) |
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| 2025-11-14 03:01:45 | <jreicher> | I think lexically scoped is correct. When shift captures the evaluation context it includes the reset, which is certainly a lexical scoping before anything else is done, and then the continuation is captured with that reset in exactly the same spot, which is effectively the same "spirit" as capture-avoiding substitution for beta-reduction, and so the lexical scoping is preserved. At least that's my take on it. |
| 2025-11-14 03:02:18 | <jreicher> | I meant to say "...and then the continuation is constructed..." |
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| 2025-11-14 03:56:48 | <jreicher> | monochrom: Oh wait. Are you saying shift/reset might be dynamic in the sense that shift can be substituted into the scope of a reset? |
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| 2025-11-14 04:12:16 | <monochrom> | Yeah |
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| 2025-11-14 04:14:24 | <jreicher> | Are you sure it can? There's a "shift v -> v" reduction rule, so if you had "\f shift f" and were reducing to a strong normal form, you'd get \f f, no? |
| 2025-11-14 04:15:12 | <jreicher> | Sorry that should asy reset instead of shift |
| 2025-11-14 04:15:53 | <jreicher> | I suspect if we dig into the semantics we'd find a barrier to the kind of substitution we're talking about |
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| 2025-11-14 05:29:22 | <jreicher> | If I've understood the semantics given by the extended CEK machine in the "static vs dynamic" paper, the shift is evaluated outside the context of a reset before the kind of substitution we're talking about, because it's a call-by-value machine. |
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