Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2021-07-25 21:17:22 | <drakonis> | Python packages that use Maturin can be built with fetchCargoTarball, cargoSetupHook, and maturinBuildHook. For example, the following (partial) derivation builds the retworkx Python package. fetchCargoTarball and cargoSetupHook are used to fetch and set up the crate dependencies. maturinBuildHook is used to perform the build. |
| 2021-07-25 21:17:24 | <drakonis> | see this lol |
| 2021-07-25 21:17:53 | <DigitalKiwi> | maerwald: you can build them better with nix lol |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:04 | <bryan[m]> | Nixpkgs has grown organically and exponentially, and because flakes didn't exist it was all thrown into the same repo to solve the dependency question. Thus multiple ways to package $foolang packages, etc. I think the Nix ecosystem will grow beyond this state of affairs |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:05 | <hendursaga> | arkanoid: you can build Docker images with Guix too, I've done that, it's pretty good |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:06 | <drakonis> | there's python packages with rust deps these days, if you want to build something that requries rust, you need to do hoop jumping |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:07 | × | amahl quits (~amahl@dsl-jklbng12-54fbca-64.dhcp.inet.fi) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:11 | → | ouroboros joins (~ouroboros@user/ouroboros) |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:21 | <maerwald> | DigitalKiwi: one of my best decisions was getting rid of nix in a company :p |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:23 | <drakonis> | bryan[m]: it has to grow beyond that quickly |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:32 | <drakonis> | because this is not a good state of affairs |
| 2021-07-25 21:18:36 | <maerwald> | I'd do it again |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:07 | <bryan[m]> | Ok, sure :) |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:07 | × | gentauro quits (~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:09 | <drakonis> | basically, i still cant believe i can install some emacs deps and it'll show on my emacs install |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:16 | <drakonis> | no weird nix-shell magic required |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:30 | <drakonis> | nix-shell is the root of many of my nix issues |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:42 | <arkanoid> | how? |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:47 | <arkanoid> | I'm not following you |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:51 | <drakonis> | i've already said it a dozen times |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:58 | <arkanoid> | sorry :( |
| 2021-07-25 21:19:59 | <drakonis> | half a dozen times, rather. |
| 2021-07-25 21:20:07 | → | gentauro joins (~gentauro@user/gentauro) |
| 2021-07-25 21:20:09 | <arkanoid> | joined the discussion late |
| 2021-07-25 21:20:12 | <drakonis> | https://nixos.org/manual/nixpkgs/stable/#chap-language-support check this chapter in the manual |
| 2021-07-25 21:20:29 | <drakonis> | count how many times you have to do something like withpackages |
| 2021-07-25 21:20:51 | <drakonis> | or invoke weird nixlang magic to actually make something work |
| 2021-07-25 21:21:06 | × | mikoto-chan quits (~mikoto-ch@ip-193-121-10-50.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 2021-07-25 21:21:12 | <drakonis> | the issue here is that you have to use nix-shell nowadays because otherwise things dont work as they should |
| 2021-07-25 21:21:16 | <arkanoid> | I know, I wrote dozen of python derivations for my nix-shells |
| 2021-07-25 21:21:41 | <drakonis> | you're not expected to mix things together with those environments |
| 2021-07-25 21:21:53 | <drakonis> | i don't think this is a very pleasant thing to deal with |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:10 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/65775/commits this took me several months ;_; |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:11 | <arkanoid> | much better than pip, conda, or docker |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:15 | <drakonis> | certainly |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:20 | <drakonis> | but have you dealt with guix yet? |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:29 | <arkanoid> | no, not yet |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:35 | <drakonis> | the python situation there is as simple as dropping into an environment or installing to the profile |
| 2021-07-25 21:22:51 | <drakonis> | you can run python and it'll work as expected |
| 2021-07-25 21:23:14 | <drakonis> | let me link to a nixcon talk by a nix contributor that used guix for a while |
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| 2021-07-25 21:23:36 | <arkanoid> | drakonis: how are the millions of python packages with their multi-language compiled dependencies handled in guix? |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:24 | <drakonis> | cleanly, really. |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:31 | <janus> | DigitalKiwi: why is Nickel dead in the water? still contributed to by Eelco and Tweag, so seems to have official blessing. and similar to the nix language |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:42 | <drakonis> | janus: you presume people will migrate to it |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:49 | <janus> | doesn't demand a clean break since it allows dynamic typing also |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:58 | × | yoctocell quits (~user@h87-96-130-155.cust.a3fiber.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-07-25 21:24:59 | <drakonis> | https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Python-Modules.html |
| 2021-07-25 21:25:18 | <drakonis> | Anything that does not fall in the previous categories goes to inputs, for example programs or C libraries required for building Python packages containing C extensions. |
| 2021-07-25 21:25:51 | <drakonis> | if i want to build something with rust, all i need to do is add it to inputs |
| 2021-07-25 21:25:52 | <janus> | drakonis: if Tweag hires a bunch of interns to make a Nickel based Alpine distro, with nickelpkgs full of the some common flakes, many nixpkgs contributors will jump right in |
| 2021-07-25 21:25:59 | <drakonis> | we'll see about that |
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| 2021-07-25 21:26:17 | × | kenran quits (~kenran@200116b82bb5e400f1c7c01f9f0a47a0.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Quit: WeeChat info:version) |
| 2021-07-25 21:26:25 | <drakonis> | https://github.com/pjotrp/guix-notes/blob/master/PYTHON.org |
| 2021-07-25 21:26:29 | <janus> | and written in Rust, can even get all the C++-haters on board |
| 2021-07-25 21:26:32 | <DigitalKiwi> | comments i've seen by people at tweag lol |
| 2021-07-25 21:27:25 | <drakonis> | you once again assume that rust will contribute to it |
| 2021-07-25 21:27:38 | <arkanoid> | drakonis: let's start from the fact that there's no search function on the packages page of the official website :D https://guix.gnu.org/en/packages/ |
| 2021-07-25 21:27:48 | <drakonis> | ah yes |
| 2021-07-25 21:27:54 | <drakonis> | but there's on guix-hpc i guess |
| 2021-07-25 21:27:56 | <drakonis> | hold on |
| 2021-07-25 21:28:02 | <janus> | i don't think it will detract from it! so given that nixpkgs "works" as a community, i don't see why there can't be another community around Nickel |
| 2021-07-25 21:28:09 | <drakonis> | https://hpc.guix.info/browse |
| 2021-07-25 21:29:01 | <bryan[m]> | It's almost like... all software has flaws... but often manages to provide value anyway. I feel like I walked into a technology roast in here just now. |
| 2021-07-25 21:29:15 | <arkanoid> | half of the python packages I need are missing. I'm not talking about fringe packages, but important tools used for science by thousands of users. |
| 2021-07-25 21:29:49 | <drakonis> | oh? |
| 2021-07-25 21:29:52 | <drakonis> | do tell though |
| 2021-07-25 21:30:05 | <drakonis> | guix has a decent amount of science users from what i hear |
| 2021-07-25 21:30:31 | × | pera quits (~pera@user/pera) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-07-25 21:30:35 | <janus> | guix is the preferred build system of bitcoiners |
| 2021-07-25 21:30:40 | <janus> | religion... even stronger than science |
| 2021-07-25 21:30:45 | <janus> | ;) |
| 2021-07-25 21:31:39 | <drakonis> | ha |
| 2021-07-25 21:31:41 | <drakonis> | idk |
| 2021-07-25 21:31:44 | <drakonis> | i'm not a bitcoiner |
| 2021-07-25 21:31:51 | <arkanoid> | but not enough to cover at least the numfocus affiliated projects https://numfocus.org/sponsored-projects/affiliated-projects |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:00 | <drakonis> | on the other hand, nix has quite a lot of bitcoin adjacent packages |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:01 | → | pera joins (~pera@user/pera) |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:07 | <janus> | ok but seriously, one thing i don't understand about guix: people say it is good to use a general purpose programming language. but why? i don't see many mainstream algorithms used in nixpkgs |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:23 | <janus> | so why are they useful in guix? this is _not_ general-purpose computing |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:33 | <drakonis> | janus: because it lets them reuse the code for a variety of tasks |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:45 | <drakonis> | its not a language running on top of a c++ runtime |
| 2021-07-25 21:32:45 | <bryan[m]> | I'm following this email thread about open source foundations, and it's making me realize how long I've been tracking open source stuff as a user or occasional contributor, and how things have changed in that time. I think it's interesting that whether OS lives or dies is now seen as depending on which companies support it and pay people to work on it. I think that's been the case for a long while, but I never really thought about it |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:07 | <drakonis> | arkanoid: maybe it would help if someone packaged them i suppose |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:08 | <janus> | drakonis: python is a language running on top of a C runtime. why does the runtime matter so much? |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:16 | <drakonis> | because its scheme |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:26 | <drakonis> | the ability to reuse code is very much useful |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:36 | <janus> | why can't you reuse a nix function? |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:39 | <maerwald> | bryan[m]: what thread? |
| 2021-07-25 21:33:53 | <janus> | what makes a scheme function more reusable than a nix function? |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:04 | <drakonis> | because nix isn't as capable as a scheme procedure |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:17 | <drakonis> | one moment |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:31 | <arkanoid> | drakonis: so the point stands, AFAIKS the science community that shares my shoes are better served with nix ... still |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:33 | <bryan[m]> | There's an email list ostensibly for members of foundations (Linux Foundation, Apache Foundation, etc etc) |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:45 | <drakonis> | hpc loves guix right now |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:51 | <davean> | janus: My claim earlier was you didn't see such things used in nix because effectively you *couldn't do them in nix* |
| 2021-07-25 21:34:55 | <davean> | not because you didn't want to |
| 2021-07-25 21:35:03 | <drakonis> | ^ |
| 2021-07-25 21:35:16 | <drakonis> | its not a matter of not using, its a matter of being unable to. |
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