Logs: freenode/#haskell
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| 2021-03-14 19:18:29 | <Gurkenglas> | actually my gurk implementation is wrong |
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| 2021-03-14 19:24:13 | <Gurkenglas> | oh, i see - gurk is impossible to implement, as it is not monotonic - i merely have that gurk x is monotonic for every x :D |
| 2021-03-14 19:25:13 | <Gurkenglas> | (after all, how would it know that gurk ⊥ () is (), if ⊥ simply loops forever?) |
| 2021-03-14 19:26:52 | <Gurkenglas> | (bad example, everything is less defined than (). same goes for gurk ⊥ True, though.) |
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| 2021-03-14 19:28:34 | <tomsmeding> | > let p = (fst p, 1:snd p) in snd p -- Gurkenglas |
| 2021-03-14 19:28:36 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
| 2021-03-14 19:29:26 | <tomsmeding> | Not completely sure what you're trying to do, but maybe that helps? Fst p doesn't converge, but snd p does progress |
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| 2021-03-14 19:31:59 | <Gurkenglas> | tomsmeding, ffgg⊥ is (2:2:⊥,1:1:⊥), ffffff... is (⊥,1:1:1:1:1:1:...). ⊥,(2:⊥,1:⊥),(2:2:⊥,1:1:⊥)(2:2:2:⊥,1:1:1:⊥),... does not converge to (⊥,1:1:1:1:1:1:...) |
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| 2021-03-14 19:33:45 | <hpc> | ffffff...gggggg... is fffff... though |
| 2021-03-14 19:34:31 | <Gurkenglas> | hpc, and yet the values of the terms are not the same |
| 2021-03-14 19:35:22 | <Gurkenglas> | which is concerning, as i thought as you did |
| 2021-03-14 19:35:49 | <hpc> | sure they are, fffff...gggggg... converges to (⊥,1:1:1:1:1:1:...) because it can never reach the gs |
| 2021-03-14 19:36:00 | <hpc> | fgfg... is different |
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| 2021-03-14 19:36:22 | <hpc> | things get weird at the limit |
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| 2021-03-14 19:37:59 | <Gurkenglas> | ah, I meant "and yet, the value that the sequence converges to is not the same as the value of the infinitary term" |
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| 2021-03-14 19:39:47 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "fff...ggg..." means. |
| 2021-03-14 19:39:59 | <Gurkenglas> | i had hoped that, in general, the mapping from terms to values would be continuous. now that i think about it in those terms, there's a simpler counterexample: id^n(True) |
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| 2021-03-14 19:40:25 | <Gurkenglas> | monochrom, "f(f(f(...g(g(g(...", which is just "f(f(f(..." of course |
| 2021-03-14 19:40:28 | <monochrom> | There was once a 0.999...=1 denier I saw on the Internet |
| 2021-03-14 19:40:54 | <hpc> | ppsh, everyone knows 0.999...=-1/12 |
| 2021-03-14 19:40:55 | <monochrom> | Their denial reason was "0.999... = 0.999...9 it ends with 9". |
| 2021-03-14 19:41:08 | <monochrom> | That's the same flaw as "fff...ggg..." |
| 2021-03-14 19:41:26 | <Gurkenglas> | (or rather, one can define infinitary terms but once you map it to values everything from omega onwards is cut off) |
| 2021-03-14 19:42:13 | <tomsmeding> | iterate (. f) f . iterate (. g) g |
| 2021-03-14 19:42:51 | <tomsmeding> | Ah that makes no sense |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:02 | <Gurkenglas> | fix (f.) . fix (g.) |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:02 | <hpc> | hmm |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:17 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f g -> fix f . fix g |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:19 | <lambdabot> | ((b -> c) -> b -> c) -> ((a -> b) -> a -> b) -> a -> c |
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| 2021-03-14 19:43:33 | <hpc> | fix (f .) . fix (g .) /= fix ((f .) . (g .)) |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:41 | <Gurkenglas> | :t \f g -> fix (f.) . fix (g.) |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:42 | <lambdabot> | (c -> c) -> (a1 -> a1) -> a2 -> c |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:59 | <hpc> | so i guess the compact way to phrase it is "function composition and fixed points don't distribute" |
| 2021-03-14 19:43:59 | <tomsmeding> | Lol that inferred type |
| 2021-03-14 19:44:18 | <Gurkenglas> | hpc, "denotation isn't continuous" |
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| 2021-03-14 19:45:20 | <monochrom> | https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-January/088315.html |
| 2021-03-14 19:45:25 | <monochrom> | "detonational semantics" |
| 2021-03-14 19:45:32 | <Gurkenglas> | tomsmeding, it's saying that the types don't need to agree because the plumbing never actually connects :) |
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| 2021-03-14 19:48:50 | <monochrom> | and "zen semantics", that one is a great ending. |
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| 2021-03-14 20:07:09 | <v75-AsSeNtE> | hello |
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| 2021-03-14 20:08:04 | <v75-AsSeNtE> | shell free ? |
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