Logs: freenode/#haskell
| 2021-04-02 13:13:24 | <fgaz> | merijn: if not I'd add it to the ideas page... if there was someone willing to mentor |
| 2021-04-02 13:14:18 | × | heatsink quits (~heatsink@108-201-191-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-04-02 13:15:45 | <maerwald> | we'll have linear types, dependent types and maybe worse soon enough, so all our egos are satisfied... and we'll probably switch to a simpler language at work then, but won't tell anyone ;) |
| 2021-04-02 13:16:19 | <merijn> | maerwald: More likely, we'll just keep writing Haskell with those things disabled |
| 2021-04-02 13:17:10 | <merijn> | Dependent Haskell is a mistake, imo. Linear Haskell I'm not entirely sure about, but I lean towards "mistake" there too |
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| 2021-04-02 13:19:54 | <maerwald> | I don't even know what was the driving force for this... either it was an academic promoting their thesis through it or someone at facebook having a heart attack about not being able to do more crazy stuff |
| 2021-04-02 13:20:04 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 2021-04-02 13:20:08 | <merijn> | Linear is Tweag, no? |
| 2021-04-02 13:20:37 | <Uniaika> | yes |
| 2021-04-02 13:20:58 | <Uniaika> | Academic Tweag to be more precise |
| 2021-04-02 13:21:14 | <maerwald> | during a heart attack |
| 2021-04-02 13:22:17 | <maerwald> | merijn: the problem is that these things propagate in APIs, so you won't be able to opt out that easily |
| 2021-04-02 13:22:29 | <maerwald> | I mean, I still have to deal with monad transformers too |
| 2021-04-02 13:22:34 | <merijn> | Dependent Haskell is the baby of Stephanie and Richard Eisenberg, right? |
| 2021-04-02 13:22:44 | <merijn> | *Stephanie Weirich |
| 2021-04-02 13:23:22 | <merijn> | maerwald: If you use things that use them, sure |
| 2021-04-02 13:23:23 | <maerwald> | Maybe the Haskell Foundation needs more conservative voices |
| 2021-04-02 13:23:40 | <merijn> | maerwald: Haskell Foundation doesn't control GHC development, though? |
| 2021-04-02 13:23:54 | <merijn> | maerwald: So that seems an irrelevant remark |
| 2021-04-02 13:23:56 | <maerwald> | not directly, but I'd say that things like these should be topics there |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:09 | <maerwald> | it changes the language, even if it's not part of the spec |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:24 | <maerwald> | impact on industry users needs to be considered |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:25 | <merijn> | maerwald: That isn't in the foundation's charter, though |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:31 | <maerwald> | that's not GHC devs job |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:33 | → | hidedagger joins (~nate@unaffiliated/hidedagger) |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:33 | <merijn> | maerwald: And what are they gonna do? Fork GHC? |
| 2021-04-02 13:24:58 | <maerwald> | Swing hammers, I don't know |
| 2021-04-02 13:25:11 | <maerwald> | I'm just complaining |
| 2021-04-02 13:25:24 | <merijn> | None of the industry users seem to mind |
| 2021-04-02 13:25:32 | <merijn> | At least, not enough to pay for things |
| 2021-04-02 13:25:36 | <merijn> | So screw 'em |
| 2021-04-02 13:26:21 | <maerwald> | well, the only big industry user I know is probably more pro these changes anyway, because they're neck-deep in type-level programming |
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| 2021-04-02 13:27:59 | <nut> | for vector package, how to choose read vs unsaferead |
| 2021-04-02 13:28:00 | <merijn> | Haskell was started as a research language and GHC as research compiler. Your suggestion isn't really viable without forking, because there's just no way to simply go "right, you guys immediately stop hacking your academic projects into your compiler!" |
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| 2021-04-02 13:28:18 | <merijn> | nut: You use read until you profile and know it's not fast enough :p |
| 2021-04-02 13:28:38 | <nut> | so unsafe version are faster |
| 2021-04-02 13:28:47 | <merijn> | nut: They skip bounds checking |
| 2021-04-02 13:28:51 | <merijn> | So "possibly" |
| 2021-04-02 13:28:55 | <nut> | i see |
| 2021-04-02 13:29:03 | <merijn> | nut: At the risk of potentially segfaulting your code :p |
| 2021-04-02 13:29:14 | <nut> | sure, it's more like c versions |
| 2021-04-02 13:29:21 | <nut> | ok |
| 2021-04-02 13:29:39 | <maerwald> | merijn: why don't they go fork :p |
| 2021-04-02 13:30:04 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, considering most contributors are working on these things people compain about... |
| 2021-04-02 13:30:19 | ← | jakalx parts (~jakalx@base.jakalx.net) ("Error from remote client") |
| 2021-04-02 13:30:26 | <merijn> | maerwald: The real question is: Why aren't all the complainers contributing to GHC in areas they keep complaining about? |
| 2021-04-02 13:30:49 | <maerwald> | well, I have a good excuse... got an arrow in the knee |
| 2021-04-02 13:31:22 | <merijn> | I'm increasingly become more aggressive of pushing the first rule of open source: patches/money or GTFO |
| 2021-04-02 13:31:49 | <maerwald> | not everything is about patches or money ;) |
| 2021-04-02 13:32:03 | <[exa]> | merijn: someone had this written as "fork or gtfo" |
| 2021-04-02 13:32:15 | <merijn> | [exa]: I mean, you don't have to fork |
| 2021-04-02 13:32:29 | <merijn> | maerwald: Well, I'm not saying either of those *guarantees* you get a say over the maintainers |
| 2021-04-02 13:32:39 | <merijn> | maerwald: It's just that without either you definitely do *not* get a say |
| 2021-04-02 13:32:53 | <[exa]> | merijn: it prevents people from just pushing patches to random repos. |
| 2021-04-02 13:33:00 | <merijn> | Programmer entitlement needs to get out of here |
| 2021-04-02 13:33:34 | <maerwald> | merijn: I recently quit a distro, because they kept telling me to send patches (which I did for quite a while), but never stopped breaking reverse dependencies. So that's a workflow (or even attitude) issue. |
| 2021-04-02 13:33:54 | <maerwald> | so I'm generally not a fan of "patches or gtfo" :) |
| 2021-04-02 13:35:03 | <merijn> | maerwald: My point was more "if you're not materially contributing, you don't get a say in what a project does". But, as all logical implications go, that doesn't mean you *do* get a say when you contribute (in which case, you fork or use something else) |
| 2021-04-02 13:35:41 | <maerwald> | merijn: sure, that's one way to handle it. The other is to give a say to users, regardless of their material contribution. |
| 2021-04-02 13:35:47 | <merijn> | maerwald: The internet is full of people demanding unpaid maintainers of open source projects "do stuff" because "my company is losing millions" and that entitlement is one of the root causes of maintainer burnout |
| 2021-04-02 13:36:01 | <merijn> | maerwald: Right, but that decision is up to...the contributors :) |
| 2021-04-02 13:36:05 | <maerwald> | sure |
| 2021-04-02 13:36:27 | <maerwald> | I'm not officially complaining about GHC maintenance here :) |
| 2021-04-02 13:36:34 | <maerwald> | I'm glad we have engaged ppl at all |
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| 2021-04-02 13:36:46 | <maerwald> | it's just language bikeshedding |
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| 2021-04-02 13:37:14 | <nshepperd> | you can get a say in development by either being the developer or offering sufficiently convincing arguments to bring the developers around |
| 2021-04-02 13:37:30 | <merijn> | maerwald: We'll team up with Athas and we'll make our purely functional language. But designed for predictable low level interaction! |
| 2021-04-02 13:37:49 | <nshepperd> | or being someone who pays the developer i suppose |
| 2021-04-02 13:37:51 | <merijn> | nshepperd: Right, but money is usually a fairly convincing argument ;) |
| 2021-04-02 13:38:33 | <merijn> | "why are you not supporing a 5 year old GHC?!?" is a wholly different kinda issue from "I'll pay you 10k to support a 5 year old GHC" ;) |
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| 2021-04-02 13:39:02 | <merijn> | I have considerable more empathy/sympathy for the 2nd one :p |
| 2021-04-02 13:39:20 | <maerwald> | nshepperd: well, an important question to ask is: What constitutes "consensus" in the sense of language proposals? Does it include the community? If so, how? |
| 2021-04-02 13:39:57 | <maerwald> | I find it hard to figure out how consensus is reached wrt language proposals |
| 2021-04-02 13:40:09 | <maerwald> | the reddit thread about linear types didn't look like consensus at all |
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| 2021-04-02 13:47:38 | <nshepperd> | i dunno |
| 2021-04-02 13:47:49 | <nshepperd> | where does consensus come in? |
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| 2021-04-02 13:48:26 | <maerwald> | during accepting or rejecting a proposal |
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