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2020-11-11 08:43:16 → jonatanb joins (~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl)
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2020-11-11 08:48:40 <dminuoso> @quote monochrom dialectic
2020-11-11 08:48:40 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Programming is a dialectic class struggle between the author and the user. My freedom is your slavery. Your ignorance is my strength.
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2020-11-11 08:49:07 → cfricke joins (~cfricke@unaffiliated/cfricke)
2020-11-11 08:50:07 <dminuoso> Even Haskells type system is balanced between ergonomics and expressiveness. Once you start encoding logic into the type system, you very quickly get into dependent typing, and then you spend a lot more time convincing your compiler of seemingly obvious truths.
2020-11-11 08:50:49 <maerwald> IME haskellers tend to pick complex solutions a little more eagerly
2020-11-11 08:50:55 → ensyde joins (~ensyde@99-185-235-117.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net)
2020-11-11 08:51:04 <dminuoso> Not just them, that's a programmers disease.
2020-11-11 08:51:20 <maerwald> Go devs? :D
2020-11-11 08:51:49 <dminuoso> lispers will macro their way through trivial problems, rubyists will use reflection left and right, C++ folks will stack their logic into thick layers of template instantiation rules
2020-11-11 08:51:58 <dminuoso> All of them resorting to these tools rather quickly
2020-11-11 08:52:21 <maerwald> and that's all fun as long as it's a hobby
2020-11-11 08:52:34 <dminuoso> or until you depend on their hobby :p
2020-11-11 08:53:02 <dminuoso> Perhaps its in that sense go is actually a good language, because it just doesn't have any tools to go crazy.
2020-11-11 08:53:27 <dminuoso> It just forces a lot of boilerplate/manual labor on you, but it doesn't actually let you come up with meaningful abstractions
2020-11-11 08:53:29 → mputz joins (~Thunderbi@dslb-084-058-211-084.084.058.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-11-11 08:53:36 → da39a3ee5e6b4b0d joins (~da39a3ee5@cm-171-98-69-111.revip7.asianet.co.th)
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2020-11-11 08:53:37 × adm quits (~adm@43.229.89.44) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-11 08:53:40 <maerwald> I could do go maybe 3 months a year. But any more, I'd get so bored that I'd just quit.
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2020-11-11 08:54:22 <maerwald> but fast compilation times is great
2020-11-11 08:54:23 <dminuoso> Well yeah, it's difficult to find the good balance, bringing us back to monochrom's quote above.
2020-11-11 08:54:29 <maerwald> something we'll probably never see
2020-11-11 08:54:31 → adm joins (~adm@43.229.89.44)
2020-11-11 08:54:37 <merijn> maerwald: I think that depends where you look too
2020-11-11 08:54:45 <dminuoso> To be fair, if you write go-style code, Haskell compiles similarly fast
2020-11-11 08:54:56 <merijn> A lot of the people who write blogposts are writing them about the overcomplicated type level stuff
2020-11-11 08:55:04 <merijn> No one writes about "boring" Haskell
2020-11-11 08:55:06 <dminuoso> iow go is just fast to compile precisely because the language has barely any interesting semantics to speak of
2020-11-11 08:55:10 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@46.217.221.56) (Changing host)
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2020-11-11 08:55:23 <maerwald> merijn: and the basics are already quite expressive
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2020-11-11 08:55:52 <maerwald> dminuoso: but it enables rapid development
2020-11-11 08:55:57 <merijn> Extensions and type level stuff are like spices
2020-11-11 08:56:06 <merijn> A little can go a *long* way
2020-11-11 08:56:15 <dminuoso> maerwald: I think the "rapid development" is in a different sense. The main goal of go seems to be to hire people and train them for a language as fast as humanly possible.
2020-11-11 08:56:15 <maerwald> in haskell, I have one checkout per branch, because switching branches wastes about 30 minutes time at worst
2020-11-11 08:56:26 <dminuoso> Not to be highly productive in it
2020-11-11 08:57:00 <dminuoso> The lack of abstractions puts an upper limit to how far you can write software, it requires tremendous amounts of discipline.
2020-11-11 08:57:16 <dminuoso> Like, only very few C projects ever become large *and* maintainable
2020-11-11 08:57:26 <dminuoso> postgres is the only one that comes to mind, in fact
2020-11-11 08:57:38 <merijn> dminuoso: SQLite?
2020-11-11 08:57:44 <dminuoso> merijn: I have not seen their source code.
2020-11-11 08:58:15 <merijn> dminuoso: I've skimmed through it (not the amalgamation, of course) and it seems reasonable enough
2020-11-11 08:58:27 <dminuoso> merijn: Fair enough, did you also skim through postgres code?
2020-11-11 08:58:31 <dminuoso> Just for comparison?
2020-11-11 08:58:34 <merijn> No
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2020-11-11 09:00:04 <dminuoso> maerwald: But yeah, if you stray away from non-Haskell2010, hit a lot of inline pragmas, keep large modules, the GHC compilation times are bad.
2020-11-11 09:00:17 <dminuoso> How well does LSP work for these projects?
2020-11-11 09:00:28 <dminuoso> From my experience, it's blazing fast even for our largest project
2020-11-11 09:00:49 → enoq joins (~textual@194-208-146-143.lampert.tv)
2020-11-11 09:01:12 × niko quits (~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko) (Ping timeout: 604 seconds)
2020-11-11 09:01:15 → m0rphism joins (~m0rphism@HSI-KBW-095-208-098-207.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
2020-11-11 09:01:24 <merijn> dminuoso: LSP worked well on my phd stuff before I broke the ghcide setup again >.>
2020-11-11 09:02:05 × jonatanb quits (~jonatanb@83.24.9.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-11-11 09:02:05 <merijn> then again, I think that code is a stress test for editor tooling :p
2020-11-11 09:02:10 → vfaronov joins (~vfaronov@broadband-95-84-210-78.ip.moscow.rt.ru)
2020-11-11 09:02:29 <merijn> multiple components, internal libraries, C FFI, CAPI FFI, Template Haskell :p
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2020-11-11 09:04:12 <maerwald> And go has ccache style build cache
2020-11-11 09:04:14 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-11-11 09:04:21 <maerwald> even caches tests
2020-11-11 09:04:34 <maerwald> dream on, haskellers :p
2020-11-11 09:06:58 <asheshambasta> https://gist.github.com/asheshambasta/3597d25f179fc2729286c4b02387f282#file-cabal-err-L9-L10 -- is cabal complaining about the http-types version mismatch? And if so, ther _is_ no mismatch?
2020-11-11 09:07:08 <asheshambasta> there*
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2020-11-11 09:08:40 <merijn> asheshambasta: There is a mismatch
2020-11-11 09:08:52 <merijn> Look at the letters after the version number
2020-11-11 09:09:17 <asheshambasta> I don't understand :-(
2020-11-11 09:09:24 <merijn> asheshambasta: The hash is different, which means it has two different plans for http-types
2020-11-11 09:09:26 <dminuoso> There's possibly a mismatch in build flags
2020-11-11 09:09:39 <merijn> asheshambasta: i.e. mismatch in either compilation flags or transitive dependencies
2020-11-11 09:09:48 <dminuoso> increase verbosity of cabal
2020-11-11 09:09:54 <dminuoso> 2 should be enough I think?
2020-11-11 09:10:36 <asheshambasta> So, the cabal file of prelude-polysemy (a package I'm trying to use as dependency), doesn't have any version bounds on http-types, nor does it have any flags. So I'd assume they're the same?
2020-11-11 09:10:48 <dminuoso> Increase verbosity of cabal
2020-11-11 09:11:58 × enoq quits (~textual@194-208-146-143.lampert.tv) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2020-11-11 09:16:28 <asheshambasta> dminuoso: what should I be looking for in the output? I've tried `-v3` and `--minimize-conflict-set`
2020-11-11 09:17:20 <dminuoso> are you by any chance still using cabal v1-?
2020-11-11 09:17:26 <asheshambasta> it seems to start with a bunch of `trying` & `rejecting` outputs for packages that look unrelated to this issue (at the start of the output, and eventually outputting almost the same thing at the end)
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