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2020-10-09 00:58:37 <ski> they should add `evalContT = flip runContT return' ..
2020-10-09 00:58:45 <monochrom> I would count "in the opposite of the listed order" as "also sequential".
2020-10-09 00:58:58 <monochrom> Not that I really want to get into that debate. :)
2020-10-09 01:00:09 <monochrom> But an inspiration I drew from is this:
2020-10-09 01:00:57 <monochrom> In eager evaluation, "(f . g . h) x" is evaluated in order of: x, h of that, g of that, f of that.
2020-10-09 01:01:07 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-09 01:01:13 <monochrom> In lazy evaluation, in order of: f, g, h, x.
2020-10-09 01:01:20 <monochrom> Which one is "the listed order"?
2020-10-09 01:01:51 <monochrom> Instead, what I'm sure is that of the two linear orders, one of them happens. So it's sequential.
2020-10-09 01:02:21 ski . o O ( speculative evaluation )
2020-10-09 01:02:58 × raehik quits (~raehik@cpc96984-rdng25-2-0-cust109.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-10-09 01:04:00 <monochrom> Taking a step further, suppose in a very strong sense both orders happen together, for example Tardis.
2020-10-09 01:04:10 <monochrom> I still say it's sequential.
2020-10-09 01:04:34 <koz_> monochrom: Thanks - I will read those, but this is rather cool.
2020-10-09 01:04:50 <monochrom> If you don't have a commutative law, then it is sequential, or perhaps you object to that commitment, OK not-not-sequential.
2020-10-09 01:05:11 <ski> list monad is still sequential
2020-10-09 01:05:24 <monochrom> And by the time you have an anti-commutative law, it's in every sense definitely sequential.
2020-10-09 01:05:37 <ski> the interface is sequential
2020-10-09 01:05:42 <dolio> I'm on record saying that only commutative things should be considered not sequential.
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2020-10-09 01:13:58 hackage prairie 0.0.1.0 - A first class record field library https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prairie-0.0.1.0 (parsonsmatt)
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2020-10-09 01:36:09 <monochrom> TIL: f (x :: forall a. a->a) = ... is also allowed under RankNTypes and ScopedTypeVariables
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2020-10-09 01:36:23 <monochrom> f will get the rightful rank-2 type.
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2020-10-09 01:43:15 <dolio> That's what we did in ermine, except it wasn't optional.
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2020-10-09 01:43:28 <dolio> The signature for f did no good. :þ
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2020-10-09 01:58:08 <spinnylights> i realize as long as i'm hanging out in this channel i mgiht as well ask :P i'm looking into using haskell for game development, and as far as i can tell aside from the sdl2 bindings (which seem quite nice) there's not much available in terms of libraries?
2020-10-09 01:58:58 <spinnylights> at least in terms of like, actively-maintained stuff
2020-10-09 01:59:09 <spinnylights> but maybe i'm missing something?
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2020-10-09 02:02:15 <spinnylights> in theory this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/inline-c seems really handy—i wouldn't mind working on bindings in general but in this particular case it would be for a series of short, sketchy, fast-as-possible games, so spending a lot of time up front writing bindings would kind of undercut that
2020-10-09 02:02:25 × conal quits (~conal@66.115.157.46) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-09 02:04:21 <spinnylights> in the abstract haskell seems like a nice language to use for that sort of project because programs can come together in it so fast :P but i'm kind of worried that the lack of library support will limit what i can realistically do without writing a lot of enginey code beforehand
2020-10-09 02:04:58 <sm[m]> spinnylights: still here ?
2020-10-09 02:05:12 <spinnylights> yaya, i just wrote that stuff :P
2020-10-09 02:05:47 <sm[m]> cool. You're right, there's not a lot that's actively maintained. But there is quite a lot of libs and interested folks out there
2020-10-09 02:06:10 <spinnylights> yeah, that's the impression i get—lots of blog posts, some old libraries here and there, etc.
2020-10-09 02:06:23 <sm[m]> a.lot of good pieces exist but have not been tied together so you have to do that work
2020-10-09 02:06:49 <sm[m]> I'm building a game with sdl right now, I think it's working out
2020-10-09 02:07:27 <justsomeguy> How can I determine which type classes can be derived, and which cannot? Do I just have to know, or can I query them somehow?
2020-10-09 02:07:35 <spinnylights> i tried to see if i could still use the chipmunk bindings but i think they would need some work before they'll compile under the latest ghc
2020-10-09 02:07:53 <spinnylights> what sort of game is it? how much have you had to do yourself?
2020-10-09 02:07:56 <dolio> justsomeguy: They're listed in the Haskell report, and GHC has some extras turned on by extensions.
2020-10-09 02:08:01 <sm[m]> If you haven't seen, there are: a lot of games on hackage, a games page on the wiki, /r/haskell-game and #haskell-game
2020-10-09 02:08:25 <spinnylights> oh there are games on hackage, that's cool, i didn't realize that
2020-10-09 02:08:52 <sm[m]> spinnylights: yes, a lot and some even build with modern ghc
2020-10-09 02:08:54 <dolio> There are also some extensions that let you derive almost anything in particular ways.
2020-10-09 02:09:07 <spinnylights> yeah i should probably check out that channel—i've come across the wiki page and the reddit a bit
2020-10-09 02:09:08 → Jeanne-Kamikaze joins (~Jeanne-Ka@68.235.43.158)
2020-10-09 02:09:17 <sm[m]> spinnylights: I'm making breakout, deliberately not using any framework
2020-10-09 02:09:21 <spinnylights> anything you would particularly recommend? it would be awesome to have some examples
2020-10-09 02:09:25 <spinnylights> nice i love breakout ^^
2020-10-09 02:10:28 <spinnylights> yeah in theory you can do a lot with just plain sdl, it's mainly a matter of time :P the goal for this particular project would be to make a series of games spending 1 or maybe 2 days on each one
2020-10-09 02:10:31 <dsal> justsomeguy: I often just assume I can't derive classes and write them, but I've found GHC's been able to do some pretty fantastic deriving at times. There's lots of magic when you're ready for it.
2020-10-09 02:10:38 <dsal> Is there a particular class you want derived?
2020-10-09 02:10:58 <sm[m]> monadius is great. Dino-rush. lambda-heights. Allure of the stars (also has its own chat room). For game engines, I maintain the oldest, and I would say possible still the most productive: FunGEn
2020-10-09 02:11:17 <spinnylights> so i think for that to be realistic i would need to do some sort of simple engine writing beforehand—if i don't worry about the lack of an easy-available physics library it probably wouldn't be too bad
2020-10-09 02:11:28 <spinnylights> awesome thanks, i'll definitely take a look
2020-10-09 02:11:37 × theDon quits (~td@muedsl-82-207-238-010.citykom.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-09 02:11:52 <sm[m]> spinnylights: I was trying to make the simplest possible game a bunch of different ways. It turns out to be a big project for me but it's still fun
2020-10-09 02:12:02 <justsomeguy> dsal: I can't think of a particular example right now; I was just reading about type classes in the textbook I'm learning from, and it piqued my interest.
2020-10-09 02:12:18 <sm[m]> once you've done it once or twice I think it's waaaay faster
2020-10-09 02:12:45 <dsal> justsomeguy: Very often, there's only one way to do it, so it makes sense that it can be derived.
2020-10-09 02:12:57 <spinnylights> yeah i was planning to write a game or two beforehand just since i would end up putting together a lot of the components of a simple engine that way as i went
2020-10-09 02:13:13 → theDon joins (~td@94.134.91.7)
2020-10-09 02:13:17 <sm[m]> I think using fungen would have been much faster
2020-10-09 02:13:22 <spinnylights> i just don't want to spend too much time up front :P the goal of the project is partially to teach myself restraint ;^^
2020-10-09 02:14:03 <spinnylights> i notice the fungen repo is a few years old now—you still keep it up and such?
2020-10-09 02:14:23 <spinnylights> i like that it's glut-based, that's nice
2020-10-09 02:14:46 <sm[m]> It's basically emergency fixes only and nobody ever used it but afaik still works great
2020-10-09 02:14:59 <sm[m]> Very simple deps
2020-10-09 02:15:16 × oisdk quits (~oisdk@2001:bb6:3329:d100:7807:4c86:5073:949e) (Quit: oisdk)
2020-10-09 02:15:26 <spinnylights> if it still works that's all i really care about :P
2020-10-09 02:15:26 <sm[m]> sm-breakout on github is my current WIP
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