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2021-03-03 00:52:28 → sablib joins (~sablib@171.113.165.91)
2021-03-03 00:53:23 × m0rphism1 quits (~m0rphism@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-059.hsi.kabelbw.de) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-03-03 00:54:05 <zebrag> thinking hard...
2021-03-03 00:54:26 × sw1nn quits (~sw1nn@2a00:23c6:2385:3a00:9310:964a:9231:59c9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-03-03 00:54:52 × Aquazi quits (uid312403@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-negexpmuxmakobfg) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-03-03 00:55:05 <monochrom> "pure f <*> pure x = pure (f x)" is straight from an Applicative law.
2021-03-03 00:55:30 <zebrag> Maybe... I'll try harder to involve the Ap case
2021-03-03 00:55:59 <monochrom> Your earlier liftAp question is the interesting one.
2021-03-03 00:56:07 COLE-H is now known as cole-h
2021-03-03 00:56:35 <zebrag> yes, when I use liftAp, I get answers I don't yet understand
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2021-03-03 01:02:08 <monochrom> The definition of Ap looks suspiciously like "a list of f things to do".
2021-03-03 01:03:49 <monochrom> Ap (the data constructor) sounds like a list node, Pure sounds like marking end of list.
2021-03-03 01:03:56 × sablib quits (~sablib@171.113.165.91) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:04:16 <zebrag> I was about to ask ;)
2021-03-03 01:04:50 <zebrag> I see...
2021-03-03 01:05:30 <zebrag> `:t case (liftAp (Just 4)) of {Pure x -> x; Ap apfa pafab -> undefined}` is returning undefined
2021-03-03 01:05:48 <zebrag> I have to "evaluate" the undefined thing
2021-03-03 01:05:54 → sablib joins (~sablib@171.113.165.91)
2021-03-03 01:05:56 × merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:06:29 <monochrom> I took a look at the source code. liftAp a = Ap a (Pure id).
2021-03-03 01:06:36 <zebrag> hum
2021-03-03 01:06:38 <zebrag> nice
2021-03-03 01:06:42 <zebrag> haven't seen that
2021-03-03 01:07:57 → sw1nn joins (~sw1nn@2a00:23c7:622f:2c00:df3:76c2:ae90:b3b4)
2021-03-03 01:11:01 × zaquest quits (~notzaques@5.128.210.178) (Quit: Leaving)
2021-03-03 01:11:11 × Rudd0 quits (~Rudd0@185.189.115.103) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:11:17 <monochrom> I think Ap is a singly linked list of "f things to do". So I think its <*> is concatenating two such lists. liftAp is making a singleton, thus "Ap x (Pure id)".
2021-03-03 01:12:11 <monochrom> To be sure, there is more. Each "f thing to do" also has an "answer" (of type 'a').
2021-03-03 01:12:22 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:2d2c:7153:bdbb:6201) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-03-03 01:12:58 <monochrom> Here is what you do (or what you expect the computer to do) for those answers.
2021-03-03 01:13:23 <zebrag> that raises an error: :t case (liftAp (Just (4 :: Int))) of {Ap a b -> a; _ -> undefined}
2021-03-03 01:13:24 × sm2n quits (~sm2n@bras-base-hmtnon143hw-grc-15-70-54-78-219.dsl.bell.ca) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-03-03 01:13:42 → sm2n joins (~sm2n@bras-base-hmtnon143hw-grc-15-70-54-78-219.dsl.bell.ca)
2021-03-03 01:13:54 <zebrag> that doesn't: case (liftAp (Just (4 :: Int))) of {Ap a b -> 7; _ -> undefined}
2021-03-03 01:14:15 × olligobber quits (olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:14:18 → zaquest joins (~notzaques@5.128.210.178)
2021-03-03 01:14:46 <zebrag> "because type variable ‘a1’ would escape its scope"
2021-03-03 01:15:12 <zebrag> gadt...
2021-03-03 01:15:39 <monochrom> The first "f thing" to do in the list --- so you're looking at the first node, say Ap (m :: f a) (ms :: Ap f (a->b)) --- well that m gives you an answer of type a. Then recursively the things in the rest of the list, ms, when the dust settles it gives you an answer of type a->b. The expectation is you apply the latter to the former to get a final answer.
2021-03-03 01:16:21 <zebrag> ok
2021-03-03 01:16:42 <monochrom> So I expect <*> to be like (++) in terms of the data structure, but also additional complication to honour the processing of answers.
2021-03-03 01:16:52 × FortuneZero quits (3223b878@50.35.184.120) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-03-03 01:17:55 <zebrag> `:t case (liftAp (Just (4 :: Int))) of {Ap a (Pure b) -> b a; _ -> undefined}` "occur check error"
2021-03-03 01:18:03 → heatsink joins (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:2d2c:7153:bdbb:6201)
2021-03-03 01:19:38 <zebrag> beside that the sentence with "f thing" is very interesting
2021-03-03 01:20:54 <monochrom> Have you seen or written fmap for Ap?
2021-03-03 01:21:45 <monochrom> ho hum Ap has to be a GADT I guess
2021-03-03 01:22:04 <zebrag> Just as you said, forgot to lift it
2021-03-03 01:22:12 <zebrag> `case (liftAp (Just (4 :: Int))) of {Ap a (Pure b) -> b <$> a; _ -> undefined}`
2021-03-03 01:22:15 <monochrom> no deriving functor sob sob
2021-03-03 01:23:19 <zebrag> Now with all that I get a `Just 4`
2021-03-03 01:25:06 <zebrag> I do not yet have the correct intuition about "functor" as a "f thing" to do. That intuition seems pivotal with free applicative
2021-03-03 01:25:22 <zebrag> But I still don't get it well
2021-03-03 01:26:43 <zebrag> In the paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.0749 they speak about it a lot, but I don't yet have the grasp of it
2021-03-03 01:26:51 <monochrom> Hrm, I'm surprised that Functor (Ap f) does not need Functor f. I need to rethink this.
2021-03-03 01:26:56 nitrix_ is now known as nitrix
2021-03-03 01:27:14 × hendursa1 quits (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga) (Quit: hendursa1)
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2021-03-03 01:28:45 → olligobber joins (olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber)
2021-03-03 01:28:55 <zebrag> that's weird; even though we don't see the requirement they use `fmap` of `f`
2021-03-03 01:30:50 → epicte7us joins (~epictetus@ip72-194-215-136.sb.sd.cox.net)
2021-03-03 01:31:11 <zebrag> hum, I'm mistaken
2021-03-03 01:34:40 × ep1ctetus quits (~epictetus@ip72-194-215-136.sb.sd.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:35:29 × nineonin_ quits (~nineonine@50.216.62.2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2021-03-03 01:39:56 × ddellacosta quits (~ddellacos@86.106.143.10) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:43:11 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:2d2c:7153:bdbb:6201) (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-03-03 01:44:07 <monochrom> Functor f is not needed because the Ap case is an existential type.
2021-03-03 01:44:52 <monochrom> So you're trying to code up fmap :: (x->y) -> Ap f x -> Ap f y, and you're coding the Ap case.
2021-03-03 01:44:56 × sm2n quits (~sm2n@bras-base-hmtnon143hw-grc-15-70-54-78-219.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:45:25 × apache801 quits (~rishi@wsip-70-168-153-252.oc.oc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:45:39 <monochrom> fmap (f :: x->y) (Ap (m :: t) (ms :: Ap f (t->x)) = Ap ??? ???
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2021-03-03 01:46:25 <monochrom> This is existential in t. "for some type t that you will not be told what". So first of all you will never be doing "fmap f m".
2021-03-03 01:46:29 <monochrom> Err sorry, typo
2021-03-03 01:46:38 <monochrom> fmap (f :: x->y) (Ap (m :: f t) (ms :: Ap f (t->x)) = Ap ??? ???
2021-03-03 01:47:09 × Sheilong quits (uid293653@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oegwsfxufkjwphyx) ()
2021-03-03 01:48:17 <monochrom> And if you don't use "fmap" on m, you won't be using f's fmap ever.
2021-03-03 01:48:40 <zebrag> (reading, was afk)
2021-03-03 01:49:11 × royal_screwup21 quits (52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-03-03 01:49:17 × epicte7us quits (~epictetus@ip72-194-215-136.sb.sd.cox.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2021-03-03 01:49:52 <zebrag> (Ap case existential, check)
2021-03-03 01:50:00 → heatsink joins (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:2d2c:7153:bdbb:6201)
2021-03-03 01:51:48 × leah2 quits (~leah@vuxu.org) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2021-03-03 01:54:15 <zebrag> I manually lifted the `b` there: `case (liftAp (Just (4 :: Int))) of {Ap a (Pure b) -> b <$> a; _ -> undefined}`
2021-03-03 01:54:33 × royal_screwup21 quits (52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-03-03 01:55:12 <zebrag> But isn't `a` escaping then?
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