Logs: freenode/#haskell
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| 2021-03-28 23:46:37 | <wrunt> | solvr: Your argument is analogous to "The world is such a dangerous place, there's just no point wearing seat belts." |
| 2021-03-28 23:46:56 | <wrunt> | I still wear a seat belt because I want to reduce my risk, not so I'm immortal. |
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| 2021-03-28 23:53:27 | <wrunt> | Also, once you've made the initial investment in learning Haskell, it doesn't take that long to write programs. The "modeling elaborately" doesn't cost you much, and can actually help you finish faster and give you better guarantees that you're done. |
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| 2021-03-29 00:01:47 | <solvr> | wrunt, the seatbelt analogy would be accurate if it took you hours to put on your seatbelt before you leave home, and then when you leave your house you need to leave the seatbelt at home. |
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| 2021-03-29 00:07:01 | <wrunt> | No, it still holds, because I'm saying Haskell's type safety saves time, it doesn't cost extra. And you still leave the house in your car with a seatbelt on, you just can't control a truck sideswiping you. |
| 2021-03-29 00:08:40 | <Axman6> | yeah types definitely save time, they let you tell the compiler what you think your program needs and the compiler tells you when it turns out you were wrong |
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| 2021-03-29 00:12:29 | <justsomeguy> | wrunt: How long would you estimate that the initial investment of learning haskell takes? |
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| 2021-03-29 00:23:40 | <wrunt> | That depends on how much knowledge you bring with you. If you already have a lot of computer science / discrete maths knowledge, or already know another FP language, then maybe a year or two. Otherwise maybe as many as five, to get really productive. But I only have my own experience to go on. |
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| 2021-03-29 00:27:24 | Axman6 | hates how disengenuous the whole "Learn X language in 24h" industry is, a profession takes time to master, it takes experience of making mistakes to become proficient in not making them |
| 2021-03-29 00:27:38 | <wrunt> | It's probably similar to the amount of investment needed to get good in Python or Java, say, except you won't cause quite as much damage (in terms of horrendous, unmaintainable code) along the way. The downside being that you also won't get as much done. |
| 2021-03-29 00:28:04 | <wrunt> | (for short-term values of 'done') |
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| 2021-03-29 00:29:21 | <Axman6> | the first Haskell program I wrote professionally after uni (after two years of not programming) is still in production, and the only bug it's ever been found to have was a Postgres matertialised view which caused the database to fall over one day when it took too long to update |
| 2021-03-29 00:32:33 | <ephemient> | I'm not sure what people's standards are for how much time and effort to put into learning a language are, either |
| 2021-03-29 00:33:01 | <wrunt> | I'm talking about full-time professional use. |
| 2021-03-29 00:34:05 | <wrunt> | Which is obviously hard as a beginner. You'd need a mentor guiding you, at first. The way I learned was over many years, tinkering in my spare time, until I was good enough to start using it at work. |
| 2021-03-29 00:35:02 | <wrunt> | And the reason I learned Haskell was that I was just so frustrated with trying to enadicate certain types of bugs in C++, and with trying to express natural concepts with Java. |
| 2021-03-29 00:35:30 | <ephemient> | I had a PL course (1 semester) in SML. from there, I found that learning Haskell on my own in an incremental fashion was easy - a lot of it was just lazier and sugarier versions of what I already knew. I'd say I was productive within a week, but as a student my "spare time" was really quite a lot :) |
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| 2021-03-29 00:41:58 | <wrunt> | Most of the frustration that remains for me is in library management, not the programming itself, which is a delight. |
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| 2021-03-29 00:43:45 | <wrunt> | I like where the Unison language is going in that respect. It would be nice if Haskell could be compiled at the function level (rather than the module level), and then I could import content-addressed functions from packages without importing the whole package. But this is pretty ambitious. |
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| 2021-03-29 00:58:56 | ski | . o O ( "Teach Yourself Programming in .." by Peter Norvig at <https://www.norvig.com/21-days.html> ) |
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| 2021-03-29 01:34:13 | <justsomeguy> | wrunt: I appreciate your take on it. I've been learning over the last eight months or so, and was trying to guage where I'm at in the process. I suppose I'm slowly getting there, but still pretty terrible at programming overall, as a mental activity. |
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| 2021-03-29 01:34:43 | <justsomeguy> | (Prior to this, I've only done simple scripting in Python and bash.) |
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