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2020-11-21 23:22:26 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Client Quit)
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2020-11-21 23:30:25 <ski> class (a ~ FooOf (BarOf a),Bar (BarOf a)) => Foo a where type BarOf a = b | b -> a; toBar :: a -> BarOf a; fromBar :: BarOf a -> a; toBar = fromFoo; fromBar = toFoo
2020-11-21 23:30:28 <ski> class (b ~ BarOf (FooOf b),Foo (FooOf b)) => Bar b where type FooOf b = a | a -> b; toFoo :: b -> FooOf b; fromFoo :: FooOf b -> b; toFoo = fromBar; fromFoo = toBar
2020-11-21 23:30:47 <ski> redmp : i wonder whether something like that could be helpful ?
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2020-11-21 23:32:39 <redmp> https://termbin.com/5l4q
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2020-11-21 23:32:59 <redmp> ^ this implements the list approach that i described
2020-11-21 23:33:09 <redmp> taking a look at your class based approach now..
2020-11-21 23:34:24 <redmp> oh wow, ski, those classes convey the whole embedding/extraction thing
2020-11-21 23:38:41 <ski> (i used `TypeFamilies',`TypeFamilyDependencies',`FlexibleContexts',`UndecidableSuperClasses')
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2020-11-22 00:18:21 <feego> hi, I'm having a little trouble seeing why (+) <$> [1,2] <*> [3, 4] wouldn't be [4, 6]
2020-11-22 00:18:34 <feego> or why <*> for lists isn't defined that way
2020-11-22 00:20:40 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-11-22 00:21:36 <frdg> feego: You can use ZipList to get the behavior you are seeking. ZipList comes with an applicative instance that will zip the lists together like you were expecting.
2020-11-22 00:21:56 <feego> yeah, i understand that, but i'm curious why <*> wasn't defined like that
2020-11-22 00:21:56 → justanotheruser joins (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
2020-11-22 00:22:50 <maerwald> would it violate applicative laws?
2020-11-22 00:23:16 × cr3 quits (~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-11-22 00:23:40 <kadoban> IIRC then there'd be no Monad instance.
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2020-11-22 00:24:18 <feego> can you elaborate on that?
2020-11-22 00:25:22 <kadoban> Well, I don't think ZipList has a Monad instance that follows the rules. So then there'd be no list monad, or if there were it'd have to be the other one, the nondeterminism one?
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2020-11-22 00:26:10 → conal joins (~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-11-22 00:26:15 <dsal> feego: Do you not find the cartesian product to be valid?
2020-11-22 00:26:35 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Client Quit)
2020-11-22 00:27:16 <dsal> > liftA2 (,) [1..5] [1..5] -- I've used stuff like this quite a bit. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable default, especially since it uses all its inputs.
2020-11-22 00:27:17 <lambdabot> [(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(2,1),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(3,1),(3,2),(3,...
2020-11-22 00:27:29 <ski> > return 0 :: ZipList Integer
2020-11-22 00:27:30 <lambdabot> error:
2020-11-22 00:27:30 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Monad ZipList) arising from a use of ‘return’
2020-11-22 00:27:30 <lambdabot> • In the expression: return 0 :: ZipList Integer
2020-11-22 00:27:32 → heatsink joins (~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-11-22 00:28:36 <ski> feego : it's expected that if you have a `Monad' instance, then `(<*>) = ap' (or at least close to that ..) (and `pure = return')
2020-11-22 00:28:44 <kadoban> If you only look at Applicative I think they're both pretty valid. Can only pick one (or zero) to be the default though. Could just require a newtype wrapper to get any. But since Monad came first, it was probably obvious to use the Monad that actually existed. Then once you've picked that an Applicative becomes more of a thing, you have to be consistent with that.
2020-11-22 00:29:24 <feego> hm ok
2020-11-22 00:30:04 <ski> > pure 0 :: ZipList Integer
2020-11-22 00:30:08 <lambdabot> ZipList {getZipList = [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0...
2020-11-22 00:30:59 <ski> > let zap = zipWith ($) in repeat (+) `zap` [1,2] `zap` [3,4]
2020-11-22 00:31:01 <lambdabot> [4,6]
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2020-11-22 00:33:45 <dsal> zapplicative
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2020-11-22 00:54:32 hekkaidekapus[ is now known as hekkaidekapus
2020-11-22 00:55:42 <hekkaidekapus> maerwald: “I wonder how long the haskell survey results take.” The data is tampered with anyway: <https://github.com/haskellweekly/haskellweekly/issues/61>
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2020-11-22 00:57:21 <hekkaidekapus> I mean, sh*t happens, but we’re talking about a poll. Tossing 0.8K data points (0.4K) like that is, … I don’t know.
2020-11-22 00:57:39 <hekkaidekapus> *(0.4K at best)
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2020-11-22 01:08:13 <maerwald> Seems it's not usable then
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2020-11-22 01:12:32 <hekkaidekapus> If it were something related to Python or Java, it would be possible to statistically correct for the N/A. I am curious to see how the problem—a stark one imo—will be presented in the results announcement.
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