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Logs: freenode/#haskell

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2020-11-19 22:56:00 hackage pandoc 2.11.2 - Conversion between markup formats https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-2.11.2 (JohnMacFarlane)
2020-11-19 22:56:08 × xerox_ quits (~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-19 22:56:17 <monochrom> zincy__: Consider how many programmers simply insist that recursive calls must consume call stack space except for tail recursion under TCO. Especially being very unambiguously specific about "stack", "call stack", and "tail".
2020-11-19 22:57:29 <monochrom> Here in #haskell we enjoy a pretty good proxy statistics based on the frequency of someone coming in to ask "so, does Haskell do TCO?"
2020-11-19 22:57:46 × jwynn6 quits (~jwynn6@050-088-122-078.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-11-19 22:58:34 <monochrom> A clear sign that the askers took their models too religiously.
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2020-11-19 23:00:43 × britva quits (~britva@31-10-157-156.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch) (Client Quit)
2020-11-19 23:01:05 <monochrom> OK, at least that's my model of why they ask it.
2020-11-19 23:02:41 toxix is now known as DTZUZU
2020-11-19 23:02:43 <monochrom> Better examples would be: hash table lookups are O(1)-time, big-O means worst case. Those they really hold dear to.
2020-11-19 23:03:05 ski . o O ( TCMC )
2020-11-19 23:03:10 <dolio> Haskell's dead. He doesn't do anything.
2020-11-19 23:03:44 <ski> @where haskel
2020-11-19 23:03:44 <lambdabot> <http://web.archive.org/web/20070703001910/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~augustss/pics/haskel.gif>
2020-11-19 23:04:37 <monochrom> OK, obOnTopic: I'm reading the paper "Splittable Pseudorandom Number Generators using Cryptographic Hashing", it's pretty neat.
2020-11-19 23:07:50 <monochrom> Heh, actually the only reason it's on-topic is because for some reason Claesen and Palka sent it to the Haskell 2013 Symposium.
2020-11-19 23:08:46 <monochrom> splittable PRNGs are now a non-Haskell-specific topic, the Java and Rust people are equally interested for concurrent algorithms.
2020-11-19 23:10:18 <dolio> I'm not sure being on topic here requires not being on topic anywhere else.
2020-11-19 23:10:23 × justanotheruser quits (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-11-19 23:10:35 <monochrom> OK!
2020-11-19 23:10:57 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-11-19 23:11:53 <monochrom> Conjecture: If Koen Claessen proves P/=NP one day, he'll submit it to a Haskell Symposium or ICFP. >:)
2020-11-19 23:12:26 <Rembane> ^^
2020-11-19 23:13:42 × gehmehgeh quits (~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-11-19 23:14:09 ski imagines "You know, I recently proved this cool result : .." in Claessen's voice
2020-11-19 23:14:35 <Rembane> :D
2020-11-19 23:14:56 <Rembane> I wonder what the reason is that they started working on the number generators
2020-11-19 23:15:00 <Rembane> QuickCheck maybe...
2020-11-19 23:15:49 <monochrom> Yeah, that paper begins with how the old random's split sucked totally for pretty simple QuickCheck use cases.
2020-11-19 23:17:02 <Rembane> Ha! Nice! :D
2020-11-19 23:17:03 × andi- quits (~andi-@NixOS/user/andi-) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-19 23:17:43 × kritzefitz quits (~kritzefit@212.86.56.80) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-19 23:18:17 <monochrom> This paper and the splitmix paper, together with what the splitmix paper cites and improves upon, all 3 use this basic idea:
2020-11-19 23:18:27 <dolio> Maybe I shouldn't drag back the previous conversation, but P vs. NP seems like one of the most overhyped problems.
2020-11-19 23:18:44 <dolio> Probably irrelevant to practice.
2020-11-19 23:19:55 <monochrom> Your generator state consists of the initial seed, the history of how you got here via splitting (a list of lefts and rights), and how many times you've called "next".
2020-11-19 23:20:14 <monochrom> And your random number is simply the hash of that state.
2020-11-19 23:20:46 → magma joins (~magma@host-87-20-128-180.retail.telecomitalia.it)
2020-11-19 23:21:26 → andi- joins (~andi-@NixOS/user/andi-)
2020-11-19 23:21:30 <monochrom> The implementation details are what hashing to use, and how to make that incremental so you never rehash the same lengthy history prefix.
2020-11-19 23:22:03 → erisco joins (~erisco@d24-57-249-233.home.cgocable.net)
2020-11-19 23:22:24 <Rembane> It's beautiful.
2020-11-19 23:22:37 <Rembane> How do you know if you should pick left or right?
2020-11-19 23:23:00 <davean> The operation you're doing defines which you're doing.
2020-11-19 23:23:06 <monochrom> Say my history is <left, right, left>, and I call split.
2020-11-19 23:23:30 <monochrom> Now the two new states are <left, right, left, left> and <left, right, left, right>, respectively
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2020-11-19 23:24:17 × magma quits (~magma@host-87-20-128-180.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Client Quit)
2020-11-19 23:24:44 <monochrom> split (seed, history, counter) = ((seed, history++[left], counter), (seed, history++[right], counter))
2020-11-19 23:25:19 × Franciman quits (~francesco@host-82-56-223-169.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Client Quit)
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2020-11-19 23:25:30 hackage codeworld-api 0.7.0 - Graphics library for CodeWorld https://hackage.haskell.org/package/codeworld-api-0.7.0 (ChrisSmith)
2020-11-19 23:26:18 <monochrom> Now you need to bet everything on the quality of your hash function, yeah. :)
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