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2020-11-19 20:56:12 <merijn> alephu5[m]: His point is that they are, but the industry refuses to acknowledge it
2020-11-19 20:56:19 <merijn> Which is why they keep building broken trash :p
2020-11-19 20:56:33 <aoei> monochrom: lmao
2020-11-19 20:56:34 <monochrom> I am saying that programmers are bound to theory in the wrong way.
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2020-11-19 20:57:02 <aoei> monochrom: I was in academic science for a few years.. many of those people are also like that :P
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2020-11-19 20:58:06 <merijn> Most of the HPC/"empirical" side of CS is a joke, tbh >.>
2020-11-19 20:58:32 <monochrom> You give a piece of theory to engineers, they take it as a model. It works? Cool. It doesn't work? They just look for another model.
2020-11-19 20:59:06 <aoei> monochrom: smart folk
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2020-11-19 20:59:21 <monochrom> You give a piece of theory to programmers, they take it as a religion. It can only be absolutely true or absolutely heretic.
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2020-11-19 21:00:00 <aoei> i wonder if programmers is too broad and you mean a specific subset
2020-11-19 21:00:16 <dolio> Well, it isn't just programmers, either.
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2020-11-19 21:00:22 <merijn> monochrom: Pfft, I belief in paraconsistent logics, I'm perfectly happy believing piece of theory to be simultaneously absolutely true *and* heretical :)
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2020-11-19 21:00:29 <monochrom> Modulo the programer in question actually has the intellectual capacity to properly read the piece of theory in the first place, of course.
2020-11-19 21:00:30 <alephu5[m]> But if assumptions A, B and C imply a particular model that fails drastically, it's often useful to the pragmatist to know that the assumptions are wrong
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2020-11-19 21:00:44 <davean> Yah, and I mean thats also true for one side of it. On the mathematical side its either true of false, on the HW side it can be more varied. Both sides often want approximations.
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2020-11-19 21:03:03 <dolio> The usual "theory vs. practice" truism is really a nonsense way of thinking. Theories are useful when they can be applied to practice, and they should be informed and developed by practice. And practice can be assisted by a good/suitable theory.
2020-11-19 21:03:46 <dolio> Learning a "theory" that never applies to practice is just kind of useless unless you enjoy the activity in itself.
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2020-11-19 21:04:12 <monochrom> Yeah. Knuth said: The best theory is inspired by practice. The best practice is inspired by theory. (I forgot whether that's his order haha.)
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2020-11-19 21:08:17 <maerwald> monochrom: you got that wrong... some priests are good people :)
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2020-11-19 21:10:04 <alephu5[m]> <dolio "Learning a "theory" that never a"> Isn't that philosophy?
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2020-11-19 21:11:16 <davean> maerwald: unlike any programmers
2020-11-19 21:11:28 <maerwald> I didn't say thate :p
2020-11-19 21:11:34 <maerwald> (but I thought it)
2020-11-19 21:12:04 <dolio> alephu5[m]: Maybe. I don't put a lot of stock in philosophy. :)
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2020-11-19 21:15:10 Lycurgus .oO( what part of perpetuating stupid lies about the nature of reality and man's relation to it is good?)
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2020-11-19 21:15:55 glguy wonders how far back he'd need to read to find Haskell in this
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2020-11-19 21:18:28 <zincy__> monochrom: Right, but don't most programmers implicitly accept they are using models?
2020-11-19 21:18:56 <zincy__> A voltage is never exactly "high" or "low" ...
2020-11-19 21:19:59 <zincy__> We dont even need electricity to build computers
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2020-11-19 21:20:19 <zincy__> Surely an acceptance of these facts is an implicit agreement that we use models
2020-11-19 21:20:21 <dolio> Good thing the model doesn't talk about voltages, then.
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2020-11-19 21:20:44 <zincy__> dolio: What do you mean
2020-11-19 21:21:18 <dolio> If you're not using electricity to implement computation, it wouldn't make much sense for your model of computation to talk about voltages.
2020-11-19 21:22:12 <zincy__> Yeah
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2020-11-19 21:24:10 <zincy__> What is it Marvin Minsky said, a computer is a a physical model of an abstract process.
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2020-11-19 21:40:41 <Bad_K4rMa> couple haskell books for sale cheap less than 24 hours left: https://www.ebay.com/usr/roph-rjp-nb5hus5uzh
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