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2020-11-19 20:13:31 hackage pcg-random 0.1.3.7 - Haskell bindings to the PCG random number generator. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pcg-random-0.1.3.7 (cchalmers)
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2020-11-19 20:29:07 <dminuoso> dolio: The black hole stuff is what justifies O(sqrt(n)) for random access. Without it, you'd arrive at the notion that the maximum of information storable in a region of space is defined by its volume, not its surface.
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2020-11-19 20:32:07 <dolio> It doesn't justify it for anything close to an approximation of practical situations, though. And I've heard doubt that the theoretical stuff actually means what people say it means. So it's both unnecessary and potentially discredits you.
2020-11-19 20:33:01 <dminuoso> Well, it just so happens that the O(sqrt(n)) asymptotics nicely match what we observe in cache hierarchies, local storage, remote storage, etc..
2020-11-19 20:33:18 <dolio> Right, so you don't need to appeal to black hole stuff.
2020-11-19 20:33:31 hackage phonetic-languages-permutations 0.1.0.0 - Commonly used versions of the phonetic-languages-common package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-permutations-0.1.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-11-19 20:33:39 <dolio> So don't.
2020-11-19 20:33:45 <dminuoso> What's the alternative. "Random access is O(sqrt(n)) but I wont tell you why?"
2020-11-19 20:34:00 <dolio> They already explained why before talking about the black hole stuff.
2020-11-19 20:34:26 <monochrom> In the interest of pruning dependencies you don't actually use, if your analysis just needs cache hierarchies, prune everything else.
2020-11-19 20:35:53 <dminuoso> I guess it depends on the audience, really.
2020-11-19 20:35:55 <dolio> The reason is that nobody actually knows how to effectively cool 3D stuff on the small scale, so memory is effectively planar.
2020-11-19 20:36:07 <dminuoso> From the theoretical approach of studying real asymptotics, it seems suitable
2020-11-19 20:36:26 <dolio> And even when you scale up to data centers, you build on the surface of the earth, so you don't actually scale arbitrarily in 3 dimensions.
2020-11-19 20:36:28 <dminuoso> Fair, I guess that's a good reason
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2020-11-19 20:38:23 <dminuoso> I was just under the impression that complexity analysis didn't just care for "How does this function behave in some arbitrarily fixed region", but about the limiting factor in theory
2020-11-19 20:39:30 <dminuoso> But your arguments about 2-dimensionality are still valid, as it's reasonable to assume that if we increase memory, we still will approximately only fill the surface of the earth
2020-11-19 20:40:15 <dminuoso> But then we should take into account that there's large regions on the earth where we wont build data centers
2020-11-19 20:40:30 <dminuoso> And that we have limited resources to even build memory
2020-11-19 20:41:00 hackage phonetic-languages-permutations 0.1.1.0 - Commonly used versions of the phonetic-languages-common package https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-permutations-0.1.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-11-19 20:42:48 <dolio> How is that going to inform a better asymptotic cost of memory access than √n?
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2020-11-19 20:43:34 <dolio> You don't need to address every possible nitpick. There just needs to be a reason to use one model over another.
2020-11-19 20:45:03 <dolio> √n is actually better for a lot of things empirically, regardless of any theoretical justification. The latter only helps you understand why.
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2020-11-19 20:48:20 nckx is now known as jorts
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2020-11-19 20:50:35 <monochrom> More meta-ly, a lot of programmers are unable to accept that we have and use models, not absolute truths; and even that some of those models are purely empirical, i.e., no one bothered to dig deeper for why the model fits observation.
2020-11-19 20:51:08 <monochrom> Engineers have made peace with that for a long time, and it's why engineers are so successful.
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2020-11-19 20:51:42 <monochrom> This is one of many aspects programmers still have a long way to go before we can legitimately call them "software engineers".
2020-11-19 20:52:21 <dolio> And since no one is using black holes for memory (and won't for the forseeable future), that isn't a good explanation for why the model works anyway.
2020-11-19 20:53:20 <monochrom> From the engineering point of view, a model is judged for merely this: For the scope of your application (possibly very niche and narrow), how much computation you need to get how much prediction accuracy.
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2020-11-19 20:54:01 <monochrom> (A scientist then dig deeper for why the model works so nicely, what is the deeper model behind it.)
2020-11-19 20:54:11 <merijn> monochrom: Not if you're me
2020-11-19 20:54:23 jorts is now known as nckx
2020-11-19 20:54:41 <merijn> Then you just go "you guys all suck so hard at engineering I had to spend most of my phd doing the engineering to even investigate these models and now I can't tell you why it works and I blame you" :p
2020-11-19 20:55:00 hackage phonetic-languages-simplified-common 0.1.0.0 - A simplified version of the phonetic-languages-functionality https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-simplified-common-0.1.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-11-19 20:55:36 <monochrom> The fact that programmers are so unhealthy OCD with absolute truths is one of many reasons why I say that programmers are in the same genre as priests.
2020-11-19 20:55:37 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-11-19 20:55:48 <alephu5[m]> monochrom: Do you really think that programmers are more bound to theory than traditional engineers? That's not my experience of the industry at all
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