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2020-10-19 21:00:52 <maerwald> we think more expressive is always good, because it gives more ways to say what you want
2020-10-19 21:00:57 <crestfallen> what do you mean the future is just types?
2020-10-19 21:01:02 <hyperisco> assuming that, I think we're going to cross from computational expressions to declarative expressions
2020-10-19 21:01:05 <maerwald> but you should have less ways to say what you want
2020-10-19 21:01:41 <gattytto> hyperisco yeah like protobuf .proto files that aren't actually code but just a declarative syntax to generate code in diff languages (made and used by google for a long)
2020-10-19 21:01:45 → acowley joins (~acowley@c-68-83-22-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2020-10-19 21:02:06 <hyperisco> maybe not the best terminology… I mean, when we use a programming language, what makes it so is that it has a semantics of computational steps
2020-10-19 21:02:39 <hyperisco> and I don't see why that is necessary to concern a person with, ultimately
2020-10-19 21:03:13 × bartemius quits (~bartemius@109-252-19-142.nat.spd-mgts.ru) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:03:40 <crestfallen> how does that relate to say, handwriting recursive steps?
2020-10-19 21:03:52 <monochrom> Does not.
2020-10-19 21:04:17 <crestfallen> ok thanks all
2020-10-19 21:05:10 → p8m joins (p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m)
2020-10-19 21:05:23 × crestfallen quits (~jvw@135-180-15-188.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-10-19 21:06:10 × chele quits (~chele@ip5b416ea2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-19 21:06:19 <hyperisco> you can say that foldr removes you from concern of how to recurse on a list, I don't think that is an invalid observation, but the meaning of both (foldr or writing it yourself) is the same
2020-10-19 21:06:20 × p8m_ quits (p8m@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/p8m) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:06:45 <hyperisco> so the question would be, if foldr removes you from the concern of how to recurse on a list, where exactly does your thinking lie? obviously not in the language semantics
2020-10-19 21:06:48 × cr3 quits (~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Quit: leaving)
2020-10-19 21:07:05 <hyperisco> and so we want to get to that place in our programming languages
2020-10-19 21:07:45 <monochrom> foldMap has a better chance to the claim of distancing from that concern.
2020-10-19 21:07:59 → isovector1 joins (~isovector@172.103.216.166)
2020-10-19 21:08:05 <monochrom> foldr? the "r" already talks about that concern.
2020-10-19 21:08:29 → hekkaidekapus_ joins (~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2020-10-19 21:10:38 <hyperisco> at least we're not programming register machines anymore (sorry embedded devs)
2020-10-19 21:11:03 × hekkaidekapus quits (~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:11:33 × skami quits (~user@24.225.186.176) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-19 21:11:35 davean looks at some haskell he did recently and quietly slides it to the side out of hyperisco's view.
2020-10-19 21:12:59 <hyperisco> hey its fun, like a board game is fun… would make a good video game
2020-10-19 21:13:52 <davean> Hey sometimes a bump pointer is too expensive
2020-10-19 21:13:56 × ericsagnes quits (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:f9eb:6fb3:7fb3:c450) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:14:27 <hyperisco> I just don't see why I'd want to use it pragmatically, anymore than I'd want to use Mouse Trap to actually catch rats
2020-10-19 21:15:11 <hyperisco> (I mean idealistically… I cope with obnoxious hardware too)
2020-10-19 21:16:36 <hyperisco> anyways monochrom is worried that I am taking everyone on a distracting mysterious adventure, so I'll call it a night. later!
2020-10-19 21:17:05 × hyperisco quits (~hyperisco@d192-186-117-226.static.comm.cgocable.net) (Quit: Curry, you fools!)
2020-10-19 21:17:28 <monochrom> That was for another context.
2020-10-19 21:20:20 × karanlikmadde quits (~karanlikm@2a01:c22:a46a:b400:3c0d:995b:be0c:192) (Quit: karanlikmadde)
2020-10-19 21:24:24 × coot quits (~coot@37.30.52.239.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:27:21 → ericsagnes joins (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:8da6:35f3:7a65:db08)
2020-10-19 21:27:46 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@46.217.196.111) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-19 21:29:06 → ph88 joins (~ph88@ip5f5af0cc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
2020-10-19 21:29:28 <ph88> This might be a stupid question .. but is this module really just called "Prettyprinter" without any dots in the name ? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/prettyprinter-1.7.0/docs/Prettyprinter.html
2020-10-19 21:29:49 → Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@46.217.196.111)
2020-10-19 21:29:49 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@46.217.196.111) (Changing host)
2020-10-19 21:29:49 → Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362)
2020-10-19 21:31:22 → merijn joins (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-10-19 21:31:40 <ddellacosta> ph88: yeah that looks right to me
2020-10-19 21:31:46 <monochrom> You can click "source" to find out. But yes.
2020-10-19 21:31:54 × solonarv quits (~solonarv@anancy-651-1-202-101.w109-217.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:32:05 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-19 21:32:40 <ph88> i have dependencies prettyprinter and import Prettyprinter on lts-16.19 but can't find it
2020-10-19 21:32:47 <ph88> wait let me check if its in lts
2020-10-19 21:33:04 <ph88> ye it's there ..
2020-10-19 21:33:07 <monochrom> Then you should look in stackage, not hackage.
2020-10-19 21:33:23 <ph88> ok
2020-10-19 21:33:35 <ph88> i see stackage has old version .. i think that is the problem then
2020-10-19 21:33:45 → karanlikmadde joins (~karanlikm@2a01:c22:a46a:b400:3c0d:995b:be0c:192)
2020-10-19 21:34:37 <dolio> Man, ApplicativeDo is really picky.
2020-10-19 21:35:10 shadowdao is now known as GoatyMcGoatface
2020-10-19 21:35:24 <ph88> what about it ?
2020-10-19 21:35:25 → conal joins (~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-10-19 21:35:43 <ddellacosta> what is a better way to create a timing loop than e.g. calling threadDelay at the level of granularity that I want to trigger timing events? I'm not sure how to approach this
2020-10-19 21:36:00 <dolio> `pure $ f . g $ x` works, but not `pure . f . g $ x`
2020-10-19 21:36:21 × son0p quits (~son0p@181.136.122.143) (Quit: leaving)
2020-10-19 21:36:35 <int-e> dolio: I like it ;)
2020-10-19 21:36:37 <dolio> Also you can't use functorial stuff.
2020-10-19 21:36:51 → ebsen joins (~ebsene@64-33-113-59-dynamic.midco.net)
2020-10-19 21:37:20 <int-e> (No, not really. But I do tend to write pure $ f . g $ x by default.)
2020-10-19 21:37:34 <monochrom> @type (<$)
2020-10-19 21:37:35 <lambdabot> Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
2020-10-19 21:38:06 <gattytto> >@type (<$)
2020-10-19 21:38:10 × ebsen quits (~ebsene@64-33-113-59-dynamic.midco.net) (Client Quit)
2020-10-19 21:38:19 <gattytto> oh I thought the bot was gonna parse it
2020-10-19 21:38:36 × p-core quits (~Thunderbi@2001:718:1e03:5128:2ab7:7f35:48a1:8515) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-19 21:39:04 <phadej> dolio: yes, the `pure` becomes "syntax" with ApplicativeDo
2020-10-19 21:39:36 <phadej> IIRC in first version you had to write pure (f . g $ x), i.e. pure $ ... form was added afterwards
2020-10-19 21:39:58 <dolio> Also `let` in a do messes it up.
2020-10-19 21:40:11 <monochrom> In all likelihood it is better to invent a flipped <$> than to invent ApplicativeDo.
2020-10-19 21:41:32 → borne joins (~fritjof@200116b864f0110043d332954cf9072f.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-10-19 21:41:33 <dolio> There's already a flipped (<$>), but that's not all you need.
2020-10-19 21:41:59 <monochrom> getChar <*> getLine <*> putStrLn "thank you" <&> (\c s _ -> c : s) = what ApplicativeDo dreams of
2020-10-19 21:42:06 × LKoen quits (~LKoen@81.255.219.130) (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”)
2020-10-19 21:42:17 <dolio> You need a complete set of opposite applicative operations that run in a different order, and to write your code in the opposite order.
2020-10-19 21:42:28 × chaosmasttter quits (~chaosmast@p200300c4a709420174fc4dcad71adf36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-10-19 21:43:07 × GyroW_ quits (~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-10-19 21:43:28 → GyroW joins (~GyroW@ptr-48ujrfd1ztq5fjywfw3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2020-10-19 21:43:28 × GyroW quits (~GyroW@ptr-48ujrfd1ztq5fjywfw3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Changing host)
2020-10-19 21:43:28 → GyroW joins (~GyroW@unaffiliated/gyrow)
2020-10-19 21:44:23 → Plantain joins (~mdomin45@cpe-24-211-129-187.nc.res.rr.com)
2020-10-19 21:45:02 → acidjnk_new joins (~acidjnk@p200300d0c723787960581240d4a66b7e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-10-19 21:45:03 <monochrom> I think my example is in ApplicativeDo order, down to the point the "return value" is specified last, no?
2020-10-19 21:45:24 × conal quits (~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-10-19 21:45:25 × Pitaya quits (~mdomin45@cpe-24-211-129-187.nc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-10-19 21:45:30 <dolio> Well, your example doesn't make sense, really.
2020-10-19 21:45:34 <monochrom> Ah nevermind.
2020-10-19 21:45:43 <monochrom> Right, that.
2020-10-19 21:46:08 <dolio> Maybe it would work with (<**>), but I'm not very confident that associates correctly.
2020-10-19 21:46:48 × Ariakenom_ quits (~Ariakenom@h-155-4-221-35.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-10-19 21:46:55 <dolio> Because it probably wasn't designed for that sort of thing.
2020-10-19 21:48:49 <monochrom> Could you be talked into ApplicativeComprehension instead? :)
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