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2020-11-25 17:44:39 <erisco> I mean lens for 1 and 2... then I should be able to have both 1 and 2
2020-11-25 17:44:40 <sm[m]> oh come on
2020-11-25 17:45:04 → LKoen joins (~LKoen@169.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net)
2020-11-25 17:46:04 <erisco> So I'm suggesting liftA2 (.) which does 1 then 2 in sequence
2020-11-25 17:47:05 × coot quits (~coot@37.30.49.253.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
2020-11-25 17:47:25 <matta> [exa]: great, so long as vanilla ghc/cabal won't be teaching me things that are widely deprecated I'm happy to start with them.
2020-11-25 17:47:49 <erisco> but I don't know if there is a better formulation... is Profunctor & Category really a thing?
2020-11-25 17:48:16 <koz_> Category implies Profunctor.
2020-11-25 17:48:29 × Tario quits (~Tario@201.192.165.173) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-25 17:48:30 → cole-h joins (~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-11-25 17:48:31 <koz_> (you can implement dimap using Category's first and second)
2020-11-25 17:48:48 → Er joins (5fa448e7@95.164.72.231)
2020-11-25 17:48:59 <erisco> Category doesn't have first and second
2020-11-25 17:49:36 <koz_> Sorry, I was confusing Arrow.
2020-11-25 17:49:41 <[exa]> matta: certainly not, stack is not "more advanced", it's just for more complicated&problematic setups. I'm using just normal ghc+cabal
2020-11-25 17:49:47 <koz_> Basically, Profunctor + Category = Arrow, more or less.
2020-11-25 17:49:50 × heatsink quits (~heatsink@107-136-5-69.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-25 17:49:52 × royal_screwup21 quits (52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-11-25 17:50:00 <erisco> if the conclusion is "that's just Arrow" then I dunno
2020-11-25 17:50:03 <koz_> (I should not reply so soon after waking lol)
2020-11-25 17:50:22 <koz_> Well, Arrow is _a_ solution sure.
2020-11-25 17:50:29 <merijn> matta: https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07
2020-11-25 17:50:52 <erisco> I am not any expert on the aesthetics/objectives of optics
2020-11-25 17:50:56 × Gurkenglas quits (~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-25 17:51:15 <[exa]> matta: also, for simple beginner-level programs it's usually sufficient to have ghci working, then load a file with :l, reload with :r, and test stuff by hand
2020-11-25 17:51:26 × whald quits (~trem@2a02:810a:8100:11a6:7427:ad4:8a1e:146d) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-25 17:51:29 <erisco> so I don't know if I am just throwing a wrench in
2020-11-25 17:51:41 × gxt quits (~gxt@gateway/tor-sasl/gxt) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-25 17:52:09 <[exa]> erisco: can you show an example of how would you like to use that? I'm still thinking it's just some kind of (reverse) traversal
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2020-11-25 17:52:48 × werneta quits (~werneta@70-142-214-115.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-25 17:53:58 ← devalot parts (~ident@mail.pmade.com) ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)")
2020-11-25 17:54:12 <erisco> say I want to increment the first two numbers in a list, then if I can prism the first and prism the second ther ought to be an optic that does them both
2020-11-25 17:54:23 × Unhammer quits (~Unhammer@gateway/tor-sasl/unhammer) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2020-11-25 17:56:46 <matta> merijn: great gist, thanks.
2020-11-25 17:57:35 → erisco_ joins (~erisco@208.98.222.65)
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2020-11-25 17:59:01 <monochrom> Heh stack goes way beyond the batteries-included principle.
2020-11-25 17:59:17 × matta quits (~user@24-113-169-116.wavecable.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-11-25 17:59:24 × LKoen quits (~LKoen@169.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2020-11-25 18:00:36 × erisco quits (~erisco@d24-57-249-233.home.cgocable.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-11-25 18:00:39 <koz_> monochrom: Yeah, because it's 'undocumented nuclear batteries included, with mind-changing reserved for us'.
2020-11-25 18:01:11 → matta joins (~user@24-113-169-116.wavecable.com)
2020-11-25 18:01:33 geekosaur would have put it as "power plant included and rebuilt according to our whim on the fly"
2020-11-25 18:02:36 <monochrom> Well, I was going for a "walled garden" wording.
2020-11-25 18:04:30 × sord937 quits (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
2020-11-25 18:04:49 <matta> I guess since I'm just typing oneliners into ghci at the moment, stack is overkill. ;-)
2020-11-25 18:05:57 <monochrom> I think people have accepted "real devs have 64-core 1TB-RAM 1Gbps-internet", they won't notice or mind frequent rebuilds and redownloads.
2020-11-25 18:06:42 <monochrom> But devs are still divided on walled garden vs liberal wilderness.
2020-11-25 18:07:24 × cr3 quits (~cr3@192-222-143-195.qc.cable.ebox.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-11-25 18:07:39 <dolio> The stuff that comes with GHC is probably sufficient for lots of learning. You don't need any package management.
2020-11-25 18:07:51 <dolio> At least, it was when I was learning. Package managers didn't exist.
2020-11-25 18:08:25 <monochrom> Yeah, I was there when cabal didn't exist, too.
2020-11-25 18:08:25 × Tario quits (~Tario@200.119.185.161) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-11-25 18:08:38 <monochrom> Even after cabal existed, for a while I ran Setup.hs by hand.
2020-11-25 18:08:44 × caecilius quits (~caecilius@pool-108-46-151-95.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: leaving)
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2020-11-25 18:09:02 <maerwald> monochrom: if I clone my work project and try to build it with stack, I have to wait 30 minutes just for the git repos to be fetched :)m
2020-11-25 18:09:05 × caecilius quits (~caecilius@pool-108-46-151-95.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
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2020-11-25 18:09:50 <maerwald> https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack/issues/5411
2020-11-25 18:10:08 <maerwald> so yes, devs don't consider ram or my old cable under the house
2020-11-25 18:10:18 <monochrom> I think people simply take advantage of https://xkcd.com/303/
2020-11-25 18:11:04 <maerwald> either that or I'm waiting between 1-2 hours for CI to fail
2020-11-25 18:11:07 <monochrom> oh haha, that one is a bit extreme though, "clone as many times as there are subdirs"
2020-11-25 18:11:12 <maerwald> yep
2020-11-25 18:11:21 <maerwald> nix does the same
2020-11-25 18:11:26 <maerwald> only cabal doesn't
2020-11-25 18:12:20 <monochrom> This is why devs should be confined to 10-inch netbooks, and unplugged. (Still remember "netbooks"?)
2020-11-25 18:12:20 × erisco_ quits (~erisco@208.98.222.65) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-11-25 18:12:35 geekosaur is using one, tyvm
2020-11-25 18:12:38 × cyphase quits (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-25 18:12:52 <geekosaur> (and waiting for it to run out of swap space…)
2020-11-25 18:12:53 → Tario joins (~Tario@200.119.185.161)
2020-11-25 18:12:54 <monochrom> (and on 802.11b wifi)
2020-11-25 18:13:18 <hyperisco> [exa], did that make any sense?
2020-11-25 18:13:28 <maerwald> or we could establish programmer licenses... I mean, doctors also have those and they also can lose them
2020-11-25 18:13:30 <maerwald> right?
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2020-11-25 18:14:43 × LKoen quits (~LKoen@169.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-11-25 18:15:01 <monochrom> Confine devs to the one-laptop-per-child laptop, and its intended usage environment: slow or non-existent internet access, and electricity comes from a solar panel. This will teach devs to respect accessibility and the value of all those "analyze the running time of these algorithms" courses.
2020-11-25 18:15:03 → coot joins (~coot@37.30.49.253.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl)
2020-11-25 18:15:10 × coot quits (~coot@37.30.49.253.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-11-25 18:17:26 <maerwald> I think bugs aren't embarrassing these days anymore, because everything is rolling release and agile. If you messed up multiple releaes in a row in the earlier tarball-ftp days, ppl would raise an eyebrow.
2020-11-25 18:17:45 <monochrom> like I said last week: perpetual beta
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