Logs: freenode/#haskell
| 2021-03-02 19:28:10 | <monochrom> | There are about 5 well-designed toy programs that answer all questions. |
| 2021-03-02 19:28:28 | <monochrom> | Beyond that it's just addiction. |
| 2021-03-02 19:29:51 | <__minoru__shirae> | this is the first time I hear about 5 toy programs that answer all questions about mutability |
| 2021-03-02 19:30:10 | <monochrom> | Well, OK, just IORef. |
| 2021-03-02 19:30:19 | <__minoru__shirae> | how do I find them? can you give me some keywords? |
| 2021-03-02 19:30:47 | <__minoru__shirae> | oh, ok |
| 2021-03-02 19:30:58 | <__minoru__shirae> | but anyway, links would be appreciated |
| 2021-03-02 19:32:39 | <monochrom> | https://termbin.com/jg6ql for starter? I.e., the original one that started the discussion. |
| 2021-03-02 19:33:30 | <monochrom> | This one asks whether "newIORef ourmap" converts ourmap to a mutable thing or it's an entirely different model. |
| 2021-03-02 19:33:55 | <monochrom> | I don't see how GUIizing it adds any value then a simple init-then-print. |
| 2021-03-02 19:34:17 | × | emmanuel_erc quits (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 19:34:37 | <monochrom> | I don't see how "press f to increment" answers the really important questions like this one. |
| 2021-03-02 19:34:41 | → | emmanuel_erc joins (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2021-03-02 19:34:51 | <__minoru__shirae> | one note: handling arrow button press events doesn't depend on the ansi-terminal package, you can do that with no dependency at all. you need to disable buffering when reading from console. see https://stackoverflow.com/a/38553473/8569383 |
| 2021-03-02 19:35:02 | <monochrom> | But eye candies and indulgence, sure. |
| 2021-03-02 19:36:33 | <boxscape> | d34df00d you should be able to translate that quite literally, `data FooType :: [Nat] -> Type where ...` |
| 2021-03-02 19:37:26 | × | heatsink quits (~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:2d2c:7153:bdbb:6201) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-03-02 19:38:18 | <__minoru__shirae> | monochrom: I mean, when you experiment with mutability, I expect later experiments to gradually become more complex |
| 2021-03-02 19:38:39 | <__minoru__shirae> | and gui might be helpful in those cases |
| 2021-03-02 19:38:46 | × | emmanuel_erc quits (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 19:39:30 | → | emmanuel_erc joins (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2021-03-02 19:39:54 | <__minoru__shirae> | when you want to see how values change in real time |
| 2021-03-02 19:45:45 | → | augnun joins (~augnun@2804:14c:658b:41bb:3843:ca5d:efc4:9380) |
| 2021-03-02 19:46:17 | <monochrom> | That sounds speculative not evidenced. |
| 2021-03-02 19:46:50 | <__minoru__shirae> | yeah, that's subjective anyway |
| 2021-03-02 19:47:20 | <monochrom> | No. You're mistaking speculative for subjective. |
| 2021-03-02 19:47:47 | × | emmanuel_erc quits (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 19:47:57 | × | rj quits (~x@gateway/tor-sasl/rj) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 2021-03-02 19:48:05 | → | emmanuel_erc joins (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2021-03-02 19:48:14 | <__minoru__shirae> | for me, it is more convenient to imagine a gui when experimenting with mutability, it gives a new perspective. And from that perspective, I can ask new questions, or can come up with new ideas. |
| 2021-03-02 19:48:39 | <monochrom> | "Does music help you code?" is subjective, it works differently for different people. "I say that music helps coding for 85% of programmers" that's speculative, I have no evidence, I made it up. |
| 2021-03-02 19:48:59 | → | garFF joins (~garff@0x3e2c8674.mobile.telia.dk) |
| 2021-03-02 19:50:07 | <koz_> | I wanna say 'not a Monad' in adjectival form. Best I can come up with is 'sub-Monadic'. Does anyoen have a better form for this? |
| 2021-03-02 19:50:28 | → | hyperisco joins (~hyperisco@d192-186-117-226.static.comm.cgocable.net) |
| 2021-03-02 19:50:31 | <__minoru__shirae> | and sometimes it is hard to come up with an idea of a console application with no gui |
| 2021-03-02 19:50:42 | <monochrom> | non-monadic? |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:02 | <dolio> | 'Sub' sounds like it could give the wrong impression. |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:12 | <__minoru__shirae> | koz_: non-monadic? |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:21 | × | elfets quits (~elfets@ip-37-201-23-96.hsi13.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:27 | → | rj joins (~x@gateway/tor-sasl/rj) |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:31 | <koz_> | Non-monadic could work, but still feels a bit ehh. |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:41 | <koz_> | dolio: In what way? |
| 2021-03-02 19:51:42 | <monochrom> | I know. |
| 2021-03-02 19:52:05 | <monochrom> | I would try avoiding adjective first. |
| 2021-03-02 19:52:24 | <monochrom> | But English is fundamentally broken in the first place. |
| 2021-03-02 19:53:13 | <koz_> | monochrom: Yes, but I can't fix that much legacy. |
| 2021-03-02 19:53:28 | <dolio> | koz_: It might suggest the same thing as subset, subgroup, etc. |
| 2021-03-02 19:53:49 | <monochrom> | In Chinese you just do "not monad" for the noun and "not monadic" for the adjective. It's a pretty concatenative language. I heard German is too... |
| 2021-03-02 19:53:50 | <dolio> | I.E. a monad that is somehow a substructure of another monad. |
| 2021-03-02 19:54:14 | <koz_> | Also dolio: What would a free Traversable look like? By which I mean some 'Trav f a' such that 'Traversable (Trav f)' for any f? |
| 2021-03-02 19:54:19 | <koz_> | dolio: Yeah, fair point. |
| 2021-03-02 19:54:55 | <dolio> | I think that's called `Bazaar` in lens. |
| 2021-03-02 19:55:25 | <koz_> | dolio: Wait, _that_ is what Bazaar is? |
| 2021-03-02 19:55:40 | → | Feuermagier_ joins (~Feuermagi@2a02:2488:4211:3400:246e:bf09:8453:9d6) |
| 2021-03-02 19:55:49 | × | Feuermagier_ quits (~Feuermagi@2a02:2488:4211:3400:246e:bf09:8453:9d6) (Client Quit) |
| 2021-03-02 19:55:49 | <dolio> | :) |
| 2021-03-02 19:55:58 | <monochrom> | I face similar hurdle with "not regular". That one is easier, "non-regular" seems to work OK. It's why I try "non-monadic". |
| 2021-03-02 19:56:10 | × | Feuermagier quits (~Feuermagi@2a02:2488:4211:3400:246e:bf09:8453:9d6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 19:56:19 | <koz_> | dolio: But it doesn't have that instance. |
| 2021-03-02 19:57:10 | <d34df00d> | boxscape: right, thanks! I had an extra tick that broke things (that is, '[Nat] -> Type). |
| 2021-03-02 19:57:11 | <dolio> | It might be too parameterized. |
| 2021-03-02 19:57:23 | <boxscape> | understandable |
| 2021-03-02 19:57:46 | <__minoru__shirae> | maybe a category theory can provide an insight. like, if it's not a monad, then what is it? a functor, applicative, or maybe some term I don't know |
| 2021-03-02 19:57:59 | <dolio> | Anyhow, it would be very similar to Bazaar. |
| 2021-03-02 19:58:24 | <koz_> | __minoru__shirae: It could be Applicative. It could also be a bunch of other things. |
| 2021-03-02 19:58:33 | <koz_> | Hence why I'm not 'pinning' it to any of the above. |
| 2021-03-02 19:59:01 | → | crobbins joins (~crobbins@2600:1700:48eb:8490:dd46:64cd:ab2e:66bc) |
| 2021-03-02 20:00:06 | × | Gurkenglas quits (~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 20:02:07 | × | fendor quits (~fendor@91.141.3.125.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 2021-03-02 20:04:27 | × | aenesidemus quits (~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 2021-03-02 20:04:36 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: By the way, it's called agglutinative not concatenative. :) |
| 2021-03-02 20:04:55 | × | petersen quits (~petersen@redhat/juhp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-03-02 20:04:58 | monochrom | cries |
| 2021-03-02 20:05:04 | <dminuoso> | And in German the example only works for adjectives "nicht monadisch", for nouns I don't think there's an equivalent way |
| 2021-03-02 20:05:15 | × | ericsagnes quits (~ericsagne@2405:6580:0:5100:7511:4100:6209:4ebe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 2021-03-02 20:05:34 | <dminuoso> | Unmonade perhaps? But that sounds really awkward. |
| 2021-03-02 20:05:53 | → | geowiesnot_bis joins (~user@87-89-181-157.abo.bbox.fr) |
| 2021-03-02 20:06:10 | <monochrom> | Unmonads doubleplusplus ungood. |
| 2021-03-02 20:06:25 | <dolio> | What's the explanation for stuff like "entscheidungsproblem" then? |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:02 | <dolio> | Or nullstellensatz. |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:05 | → | fendor joins (~fendor@91.141.3.125.wireless.dyn.drei.com) |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:08 | <monochrom> | Perhaps "unmonadic" works. |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:10 | → | petersen joins (~petersen@redhat/juhp) |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:27 | <boxscape> | dolio I think the caveat was specifically that there's no good translation for the "non-" prefix |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:33 | <dminuoso> | dolio: We can agglutinate nouns just fine, but the noun version of "non-monadic" there's no noun for "non" |
| 2021-03-02 20:07:41 | <dolio> | Oh I see. |
| 2021-03-02 20:08:16 | <monochrom> | When a language is not recognizable (recognizable = semi-decidable), I am really tempted to say "unrecognizable", but it sounds more like a joke than serious. |
| 2021-03-02 20:08:17 | × | emmanuel_erc quits (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 2021-03-02 20:08:27 | <dminuoso> | (And we can agglutinate adjectives with nouns too, but "nicht monadisch" is not a single adjective, so it doesnt work) |
| 2021-03-02 20:08:41 | → | emmanuel_erc joins (~user@2603-7000-9600-01c9-c404-e80d-f3d0-d4c5.res6.spectrum.com) |
| 2021-03-02 20:09:32 | <dminuoso> | Like Kleinformat (= small format) |
| 2021-03-02 20:09:47 | <monochrom> | Wait, you don't add "un" to "m". You add "im". "immonadic"... |
| 2021-03-02 20:10:09 | <boxscape> | nonimmonadic |
| 2021-03-02 20:10:11 | <dolio> | I have to say, it seems like German mathematicians were good at naming their stuff, but then people that spoke other languages just used the German words instead of using the same approach. |
| 2021-03-02 20:10:14 | <dminuoso> | monochrom: Yeah, I suppose that's the latin origin there. In German that becomes `un` |
| 2021-03-02 20:10:21 | × | FortuneZero quits (3223b878@50.35.184.120) (Quit: Connection closed) |
| 2021-03-02 20:10:26 | <monochrom> | immonadic immobile immu calculus |
| 2021-03-02 20:11:13 | <monochrom> | Yeah eigenvalues instead of characteristic values. Then again "eigen" is shorter so meh. |
| 2021-03-02 20:11:30 | <boxscape> | to be fair "zero position sentence" just doesn't have the same ring to it as nullstellensatz |
| 2021-03-02 20:12:23 | <monochrom> | ooohhhh is that what the movie title "the zero theorem" trying to say... |
All times are in UTC.