Logs: freenode/#haskell
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| 2021-03-21 21:25:38 | <monochrom> | "getLine :: IO String" is said to give you a string under the context of IO. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:26:03 | <hpc> | yuck |
| 2021-03-21 21:26:14 | <monochrom> | You can immediately see it is just the flawed "extract a string" with newer, more treacherous dressing. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:27:13 | <timCF> | ski: For now I'll explain just Functors, then other day Applicatives, and some other day Monads :) Surprisingly, it's really hard even to explain basic things, because just 2 functor laws requiring understanding of currying and composition. Good thing is that all this can be written in one list of source code in 10 minutes. |
| 2021-03-21 21:29:47 | <monochrom> | Don't forget that the whole notion that "Maybe" in isolation, i.e., you don't wants have to say "Maybe what?", is entirely new, strange, or foreign to most programmers in the first place. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:30:46 | <timCF> | monochrom: exactly! That's why I'm not using `Maybe` as example for them. I'm using `Either` and `List`. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:31:07 | <monochrom> | People can understand "f :: a -> Maybe a" in terms of "<T> Maybe<T> f(T)". By extension they can also understand "instance Monoid (Maybe a)". |
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| 2021-03-21 21:32:34 | <monochrom> | Suddenly you say your generalzation is not from Maybe Int to Maybe a, it is from Maybe Int to f Int. In terms of Java and C++, there is no such thing. And furthermore you're now saying you can also have "instance Functor Maybe", and it is not "instance Functor (Maybe a)". Well that just breaks a lot of minds. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:33:14 | <monochrom> | Um List enjoys the same problems. |
| 2021-03-21 21:33:36 | <monochrom> | Either enjoys the same problems one level up. |
| 2021-03-21 21:35:21 | <monochrom> | You don't have to write the functor laws with composition. |
| 2021-03-21 21:35:54 | <monochrom> | "fmap (\x -> x) xs = xs" and "fmap g (fmap f xs) = fmap (\x -> g (f x)) xs" work fine. |
| 2021-03-21 21:36:21 | <monochrom> | That still uses currying but supposedly one has have spent much time practicing currying before this. |
| 2021-03-21 21:37:15 | <monochrom> | Also since highschool math already teaches function composition, it should not be a hurdle either. |
| 2021-03-21 21:38:04 | <monochrom> | Unless you are saying you have data that corroborates with my theory that programming attracts people who failed math. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:43:12 | <timCF> | monochrom: Good theory actually. I did learned chemistry in university, and math was hard to understand) |
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| 2021-03-21 21:45:03 | <timCF> | I remember that moment, when for me was easier to write a program to emulate task in statistics, and get approx solution from RNG results, then to solve it mathematically |
| 2021-03-21 21:45:40 | × | stree quits (~stree@68.36.8.116) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| 2021-03-21 21:45:51 | <monochrom> | Then you may be interested to hear my full theory. |
| 2021-03-21 21:45:57 | <monochrom> | I mean, >:) |
| 2021-03-21 21:46:54 | <monochrom> | Those who do well in math, they are attracted to either the more creative pure math or the more profitable quant. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:48:24 | <monochrom> | Those who are scientifically minded (i.e., they want to and know how to refute hypotheses by testing), they are attracted to various more interesting scientific research or more profitable chemical engineering or biochem. |
| 2021-03-21 21:49:03 | <monochrom> | Those who are good with words, they are attracted to the more creative creative writing or the more profitable law career. |
| 2021-03-21 21:49:47 | <monochrom> | So what are the remaining career options? Programming and religious careers. And it shows. |
| 2021-03-21 21:50:23 | <monochrom> | We have programmers who can't use math, are illogical, can't test, and can't write or even read TFM. |
| 2021-03-21 21:50:32 | <monochrom> | Just like most priests. |
| 2021-03-21 21:50:43 | <monochrom> | Just look at Larry Wall. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:52:41 | <timCF> | monochrom: :) And software revelopers are very religious! Functional programming camp, OOP camp, JS camp, GO camp |
| 2021-03-21 21:53:10 | <pjb> | monochrom: the alternative is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra |
| 2021-03-21 21:53:26 | <pjb> | monochrom: prove your algorithms! |
| 2021-03-21 21:53:54 | <monochrom> | Dijkstra was very capable with both math and physics. |
| 2021-03-21 21:54:01 | <pjb> | or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hoare |
| 2021-03-21 21:54:05 | <pjb> | Indeed, exactly. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:54:44 | <joel135> | What is TFM? GO the language or something else? |
| 2021-03-21 21:54:56 | <monochrom> | the ??????? manual |
| 2021-03-21 21:55:22 | <pjb> | joel135: The Fine Manual. |
| 2021-03-21 21:55:28 | <MarcelineVQ> | r(tfm) |
| 2021-03-21 21:55:37 | <MarcelineVQ> | * (r)tfm :> |
| 2021-03-21 21:55:40 | <timCF> | Yeah, I mean Go language. In my experience, it's very hard to prove them that generics are good for programming :) |
| 2021-03-21 21:56:00 | <monochrom> | Oh, that one, I think we have been unfair to PIke. |
| 2021-03-21 21:56:19 | <joel135> | Oh lol |
| 2021-03-21 21:56:32 | <yushyin> | timCF: generics are confirmed for go2, though. |
| 2021-03-21 21:56:38 | <monochrom> | Pike wanted to take time working out a simpler story for generics, so Go v1 doesn't have it, he will add it when it's ready. |
| 2021-03-21 21:57:25 | <monochrom> | So that one I respect him for not rushing it. |
| 2021-03-21 21:57:56 | <monochrom> | https://twitter.com/mosheroperandi/status/856946180810354688 is still worth a laugh though, while it lasts. |
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| 2021-03-21 21:58:39 | <yushyin> | and philip wadler helped them |
| 2021-03-21 21:59:56 | <hpc> | yushyin: finally we can use the unicode aboriginal block for its original intended purpose: GADTs :D |
| 2021-03-21 22:00:17 | <hpc> | (or whichever block was used for the original hack) |
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| 2021-03-21 22:09:53 | hackage | ory-kratos 0.0.5.10 - API bindings for Ory Kratos https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ory-kratos-0.0.5.10 (njaremko) |
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| 2021-03-21 22:12:22 | <ski> | monochrom : seems possibly they're finally getting some form of them, <https://github.com/golang/go/issues/43651> ? |
| 2021-03-21 22:12:27 | <slack1256> | I really like that wadler is well respected outside the haskell community. |
| 2021-03-21 22:13:27 | <ski> | Wadler often has quite readable papers, commonly with witty titles. and seems to be a good speaker |
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| 2021-03-21 22:14:33 | <slack1256> | I wonder why aren't other academics trying to use funny titles in their papers, it seems they get more noticed. |
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| 2021-03-21 22:17:15 | <pjb> | slack1256: most of academics don't publish to get noticed, but only to fulfill their quota of publication to get the next round of budget. |
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| 2021-03-21 22:28:59 | <ski> | • Joke |
| 2021-03-21 22:29:08 | <ski> | Scientific standards are terrible, one should never joke : to be taken seriously, put people to sleep ! In a paper, no funny drawings, it would be a waste of paper. However, full pages of repetitive definitions, of Prussian formalism, are not considered as a waste. |
| 2021-03-21 22:29:20 | <ski> | A good joke makes you understand a complex methodological point. For instance, when I say that a consistency proof is like an insurance against the explosion of Earth, you get it directly. However, some jokes are dishonest, since they don't respect the very spirit of what they are alluding to, typically the allegory of the prisoners. |
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