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| 2021-03-01 21:00:58 | <monochrom> | "tangible values" was a response to observable. |
| 2021-03-01 21:01:49 | <monochrom> | I think that later FRP emerged and superseded it |
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| 2021-03-01 21:03:41 | <conal_> | Tangible values came well after FRP and was about direct manipulation of functionality-plus-GUI with a categorical flavored underpinning. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:10:57 | <python476> | conal_: are you still into FRP ? |
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| 2021-03-01 21:11:45 | <conal_> | python476: only in the background. still noodling some aspects. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:12:17 | <conal_> | hm. i wonder why my handle is "_"-suffixed. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:14:33 | <geekosaur> | freenode burped a couple days ago? |
| 2021-03-01 21:15:17 | <int-e> | geekosaur: not sure what you mean, but there was a spam wave |
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| 2021-03-01 21:15:53 | <conal_> | A problem with all of those state-update interfaces is that they wire in discreteness and thus discretization error, breaking simple, precise semantics, useful algebraic properties, and lots of optimization opportunities. Eliminating those properties by using continuous time was the original motivation for FRP. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:15:58 | <geekosaur> | lots of joins/parts, and it wasn't just matrix |
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| 2021-03-01 21:16:27 | <conal_> | While imperative programming is deeply entwined with temporal discreteness, functional programming is not. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:19:32 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | conal_: by descreteness you mean organizing the program as a big loop? |
| 2021-03-01 21:21:54 | <conal_> | minoru_shiraeesh: Loops are one sign of discreteness, since they repeat only finitely often. Another is mutation. Another is lists. Another is anything like `MyState -> Command -> MyState`. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:23:49 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | are conduits relevant here? can you have a design in which you have a core running on conduits and pure modules? |
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| 2021-03-01 21:58:16 | <conal> | minoru_shiraeesh: I just looked at the haskell conduits library. It seems to be stream-oriented and thus intrinsically discrete as well. |
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| 2021-03-01 21:59:00 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | conal: I was about to post "maybe there is an article that demonstrates how to translate the Observer pattern to fp using conduits" |
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| 2021-03-01 22:00:25 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | conal: so if I take a knife and slice a rope to pieces, then those pieces are descrete, right? |
| 2021-03-01 22:00:51 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | but if I take a lot of ropes and make a net, then that net is not descrete |
| 2021-03-01 22:01:15 | <python476> | conal: how does continuity works in FRP since machines (most of them) are discrete in the end |
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| 2021-03-01 22:01:25 | <conal> | minoru_shiraeesh: beware that the term "fp" has become very loose. see http://conal.net/blog/posts/is-haskell-a-purely-functional-language#comment-626 . |
| 2021-03-01 22:01:34 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | is this image helpful in understanding descreteness you are talking about? |
| 2021-03-01 22:01:52 | <Cale> | python476: The key is that you may only need to observe a continuous function at finitely many points in the end |
| 2021-03-01 22:02:18 | <python476> | so sampling |
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| 2021-03-01 22:02:36 | <Cale> | Yeah |
| 2021-03-01 22:02:39 | <conal> | python476: machines aren't discrete, since they're made of matter. discreteness is an abstraction. besides, programming is not about modeling the limitations of technology. just as you can write about things other than pencils. |
| 2021-03-01 22:03:07 | <conal> | yes, what Cale said. exactly as with lazy infinite structures. |
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| 2021-03-01 22:03:38 | <conal> | infiniteness and continuity enable modularity in ways that finiteness and discreteness prevent. |
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| 2021-03-01 22:03:56 | <python476> | yes but so far your processor is your paradigm bottleneck, I don't have access to electrons from my compiler |
| 2021-03-01 22:03:58 | <conal> | See the classic paper "Why functional programming matters". |
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| 2021-03-01 22:04:32 | <python476> | I skimmed through it but .. I don't remember this side, so I guess i'll have to re-read it |
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| 2021-03-01 22:05:22 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | conal: doesn't that mean that IO is by definition descrete? |
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| 2021-03-01 22:05:41 | <Cale> | Reflex doesn't have a great story at present for defining Behaviors (functions of time) that don't change at discrete moments in time, but it also doesn't let you observe the fact that a Behavior changes discretely, and even if your Behavior is only changing discretely, this distinction that it it's impossible to tell whether it's changing continuously is an important thing for the design of systems. |
| 2021-03-01 22:06:19 | <minoru_shiraeesh> | so your program become descrete too, or it should have a non-discrete to descrete translation layer if it wants to interact with the world |
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