Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2026-04-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

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07:13:18 <gentauro> if you use the `DuplicateRecordFields` language pragma (duplicate record fields). How do you specify you want to use `Foo { foo :: String }` from `FooBar { foo :: String, bar :: String}`?
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08:34:13 <tomsmeding> gentauro: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/duplicate_record_fields.html#extension-DuplicateRecordFields
08:34:24 <tomsmeding> I think the part until 6.5.5.1 answers your question
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09:01:38 <Milan_Vanca> Do I understand that correctly that there is difference between exporting module M (S(S, x)) where .. and module M (S(S), x) where
09:02:36 <Milan_Vanca> data S = S {x :: Int}
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09:10:04 <Milan_Vanca> Anyway I want to ask different question. I have noticed many libs (alost all) on hackage to specify upper bound for its dependencies. This article https://iscinumpy.dev/post/bound-version-constraints/ says libs should not do that. Do you think information in that article is relevant for haskell packages?
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09:12:23 <Milan_Vanca> I don't want to start flame war I am asking in good faith. Like now I just manually "allow-newer" for every dependency but it tiresome
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09:15:16 <Milan_Vanca> To my knowledge cabal/ghc too uses "flat" structure of dependencies same as python, so arguments should be applicable.
09:19:03 <merijn> I don't know what "flt structure oif dependencies" means
09:19:32 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Python's ecosystem is constantly broken, so I would ignore anything they say
09:19:39 <tomsmeding> from the tldr in that article:
09:19:42 <tomsmeding> > Anyone can fix a missing cap, but users cannot fix an over restrictive cap
09:19:51 <merijn> They keep reinventing their build tools every year too, each time with the same problems
09:19:51 <tomsmeding> well, no
09:20:25 <tomsmeding> fixing a missing cap requires forking the project, whereas fixing an over-restrictive cap can be done with allow-newer or by asking for a non-maintainer update of the metadata on hackagte
09:20:29 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: cabal is fundamentally different from python's dependencies management approach
09:20:55 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Have you read the PVP?
09:21:14 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: https://pvp.haskell.org
09:22:18 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: :D Good point I think
09:22:26 <merijn> Not to mention in python everything's just dictionaries of strings to values and no guarantees of what fields exist. Which means that using the wrong version very often kinda seems to work, if you're lucky
09:23:15 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: Not yet thank you for link
09:23:18 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: If you have to "allow-newer" many things, that's a sign you're using unmaintained/out of date dependencies
09:23:27 <merijn> OR you're on the bleeding edge
09:24:02 <Milan_Vanca> tomsmeding: but can't we say in cabal to cap some max version and thus no need for fork?
09:24:39 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Some important differences between cabal and python's tooling: 1) cabal creates a DAG of dependencies with version constraints and tries to solve it to find a combination of dependency versions that makes every transitive dependency happy
09:24:57 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: No I use ghc 9.14 and many libs just don't support that yet.
09:25:00 <merijn> that means that if a package claims to work (no upper bound), but doesn't you break everything
09:25:07 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Right, so that's bleeding edge :p
09:25:14 <merijn> I would not use the latest GHC, tbh
09:25:26 <merijn> I personally always used "second to latest"
09:27:34 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: 2) unlike python's "everything is globally installed" OR "you gotta manually sandbox each project", cabal creates "on-demand" per-project projections of everything installed globally
09:27:37 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: I read your note about building DAG and trying to satisfy all dependencies.. But python must do the same
09:27:43 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Oh god no
09:28:00 <Milan_Vanca> Okey I mean poetry
09:28:06 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: Most Python tooling just looks at your flat list of dependencies and goes "check, lemme use that"
09:28:36 <Milan_Vanca> you have sandbox and then solve dependencies there...
09:28:57 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: at any rate, unless there is a specific bug blocking you OR new feature you need from the latest GHC I would never recommend using the latest version
09:29:16 <merijn> I'd probably pick 9.10 or 9.12 atm
09:30:46 <merijn> And then all your --allow-newer problems should hopefully disappear
09:31:13 <Milan_Vanca> That is one way granted
09:31:58 <gentauro> tomsmeding: yeah, I road that piece of documentation and I didn't get any wiser …
09:32:05 <merijn> It generally takes 9 months to a year for a new GHC version to percolate through to for the majority of the ecosystem to
09:32:24 <merijn> And there's often not a really big reason to adopt the bleeding edge while that happens
09:33:04 <gentauro> anyway, just renamed the field and no probs :)
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09:43:41 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: Your stance about not using latest version are quite strong. And I kind of agree when one develops mission critical application. But also somebody needs to use and test latest version to iron out all issues. I don't want to believe that "Suitable for use/LTS" is really that buggy.
09:44:58 <Milan_Vanca> But also maybe I like to live on edge...There is also .NET MAUI "production ready" for few years but still unusable...
09:48:49 <merijn> Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't use/test the latest version. Just be aware that that comes with a lot of --allow-newer overrides until adoption goes wider :p
09:49:38 <merijn> Milan_Vanca: It's not so much about not using latest because of being buggy, but just because dealing with the ecosystem not being instantly ready is too much of a hassle
09:51:26 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: If I "allow-newer" then the "worst" case is that type's won't match and it just won't compile right? Should I also expect runtime bugs? I mean there is always posibility to use "untested" version.
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09:53:23 <Milan_Vanca> Yeah.. runtime bugs are always possible.. I should start writing more tests :D
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10:02:59 <Milan_Vanca> merijn: Anyway when you said not to look up to python packaging. Are there other systems you might recommend?
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10:03:42 <merijn> haskell's :p
10:03:47 <merijn> and maybe Rust?
10:04:03 <merijn> Although rust's stuff is heavily cabal inspired afaik
10:04:23 <Milan_Vanca> really? I didn't know that
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14:29:39 <tomsmeding> suppose I'm writing a little TCP server, and I have a loop that calls accept() to accept connections. I want to be exception-safe and I have some locking going on around this, so I write `mask $ \unmask -> do .... ; unmask (accept sock) `onException` cleanup; ...`
14:30:14 <tomsmeding> i.e. I want the `accept` call to be interruptible (because I'll be blocking there), but I want to know it if it went wrong and do some cleanup
14:31:03 <tomsmeding> now from just reading Control.Exception documentation, it seems that it might be possible that this thread is killed _after_ `accept` has accepted a connection (and thus opened a socket for it), but _before_ it returns.
14:31:24 <tomsmeding> I do get to run my cleanup in this case, but I don't have a socket, so I have a lingering socket open that was accepted but not closed
14:31:55 <tomsmeding> Can this be avoided, or alternatively, is it impossible for an asynchronous exception to be delivered in that interval?
14:35:26 <tomsmeding> (this is the function that is called: https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/network-3.2.8.0/docs/src/Network.Socket.Syscall.html#accept )
14:36:16 <tomsmeding> that mkSocket call (on the `new_sock <- ...` line) performs allocation, so it's an exception reception point as far as I know
14:38:03 <tomsmeding> or is this whole design wrong and should I just not unmask, but instead run the accept() call in masked state and do an `allowInterrupt` afterwards to check if something happened in the meantime?
14:38:25 <tomsmeding> (since accept() blocks in a foreign call, and foreign calls can't be interrupted with an asynchronous exception anyway)
14:39:33 <geekosaur> you might want https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/safe-exceptions or UnliftIO
14:39:39 <tomsmeding> I'm in IO
14:39:54 <tomsmeding> so I don't need to unlift anything
14:40:13 <int-e> tomsmeding: Yeah I don't think the `unmask` is buying you anything useful here, in terms of interruptibility.
14:40:28 <tomsmeding> yeah I think I talked myself into the proper solution in the end
14:40:55 <int-e> (I was about to write something similar to what you wrote.)
14:41:13 <tomsmeding> cool, thank you for being my rubber duck
14:41:21 <tomsmeding> I just packed all of mine (I'm moving), so I needed you guys
14:41:30 <int-e> quack
14:41:36 <tomsmeding> :D
14:42:00 <geekosaur> the reason I mentioned UnliftIO is that it also provides an exception API that, unlike the standard one, lets you ensure nothing leaks
14:42:19 <geekosaur> (because it's a prerequisite for getting UnliftIO right)
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14:49:21 <tomsmeding> relatedly: is Control.Concurrent.STM.atomically an interruptible operation?
14:50:00 <tomsmeding> (and if it throws, or lets through, an asynchronous exception, can I assume that the transaction has failed?)
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14:53:27 <int-e> STM transactions that don't retry are not interruptible
14:53:38 <tomsmeding> but it has a literal retry in it :p
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14:53:49 <tomsmeding> (that's why I'm using STM here)
14:54:06 <tomsmeding> it's fine if it's interruptible, as long as I can assume that if it's interrupted, it failed
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14:55:39 <int-e> If the retry bubbles up to atomically, it blocks the thread waiting for some of the involved variables to change, so the thread becomes interruptible then.
14:55:50 <tomsmeding> right
14:56:14 <int-e> So if you run `atomically` with exceptions masked... yeah getting an exception is only possible if the transaction hasn't succeeded yet.
14:56:22 <tomsmeding> perfect
14:57:17 <int-e> ("bubbles up" -- it can also hit `orElse` and that doesn't make things interruptible)
14:57:26 <tomsmeding> yes makes sense
14:57:41 <int-e> Partly based on https://stackoverflow.com/questions/78132502/is-retry-using-stm-action-guaranteed-interruptible-in-ghc-haskell
14:58:11 <int-e> (mostly for confirmation, but the `orElse` details didn't occur to me)
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