Logs on 2026-04-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:18:59 | <gentauro> | % concat $ Just [] |
| 07:18:59 | <yahb2> | [] |
| 07:19:06 | <gentauro> | % concat $ Nothing |
| 07:19:06 | <yahb2> | [] |
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| 07:32:53 | <ski> | > concat [[[],[1,2],[3,4,5]],[[6,7,8,9],[10,11,12,13,14]],[[15,16,17,18,19,20]],[]] |
| 07:32:55 | <lambdabot> | [[],[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8,9],[10,11,12,13,14],[15,16,17,18,19,20]] |
| 07:32:57 | <ski> | > map concat [[[],[1,2],[3,4,5]],[[6,7,8,9],[10,11,12,13,14]],[[15,16,17,18,19,20]],[]] |
| 07:32:58 | <lambdabot> | [[1,2,3,4,5],[6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14],[15,16,17,18,19,20],[]] |
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| 11:15:49 | <gentauro> | % newtype FooBar = FooBar { foobar :: [Int] }; concatMap foobar Nothing; concatMap foobar $ Just $ FooBar [] |
| 11:15:49 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:47:46: error: [GHC-25277] ; Parse error: module header, import declaration ; or top-level declaration expected. |
| 11:16:02 | <gentauro> | % newtype FooBar = FooBar { foobar :: [Int] }; concatMap foobar Nothing |
| 11:16:02 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:49:46: error: [GHC-25277] ; Parse error: module header, import declaration ; or top-level declaration expected. |
| 11:16:17 | <gentauro> | % newtype FooBar = FooBar { foobar :: [Int] } |
| 11:16:17 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
| 11:16:28 | <gentauro> | % concatMap foobar Nothing |
| 11:16:28 | <yahb2> | [] |
| 11:16:36 | <gentauro> | % concatMap foobar $ Just $ FooBar [] |
| 11:16:36 | <yahb2> | [] |
| 11:16:39 | <gentauro> | % concatMap foobar $ Just $ FooBar [42] |
| 11:16:39 | <yahb2> | [42] |
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| 11:36:31 | <ski> | at least write `f . g $ x', rather than `f $ g $ x' |
| 11:36:56 | ski | would write `(f . g) x' or `f (g x)' |
| 11:40:47 | <ski> | (if you write `f . g . h $ x', you can (because `.' is associative, `(f . g) . h = f . (g . h)') factor out `f . g' or `g . h' or `f . g . h' into its own definition. with `f $ g $ h $ x' you can't quite as easily do that refactoring (`$' is not associative)) |
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| 13:12:51 | <tomsmeding> | ski: on the other hand, in write-only code like something typed into ghci, the pattern "f $" is compositional, whereas with "f . g $ x" the operator to use depends on whether it's the last function to apply or any other |
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| 13:18:59 | ski | would simply not use `$' at all, there |
| 13:20:19 | tomsmeding | too |
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| 13:41:40 | <gentauro> | ski: what's F# pipe-opeator in Haskell? I recall they ported it so you could read code from left-to-right, top-down, just like you read "plain inglés" |
| 13:41:59 | <[exa]> | gentauro: (&) ? |
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| 14:11:42 | <ski> | "plain inglés" ? |
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| 15:23:39 | <gentauro> | [exa]: oh yeah, that's the one -> https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/base-4.22.0.0/docs/Data-Function.html#v:-38- |
| 15:25:19 | <haskellbridge> | <Bowuigi> Certified spanglish moment |
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| 15:28:37 | <gentauro> | Bowuigi: yes |
| 15:28:59 | <gentauro> | ski: likes to code one way, and I code another |
| 15:29:30 | <gentauro> | I wonder if it would be possible to have truly "semantic versining" in Haskell, just like `unison` has it -> «Semantic version control. Unison's version control is language-aware. There are no conflicts due to code formatting or whitespace, order of imports, order of definitions in a file, or any other differences that aren't semantically meaningful» |
| 15:29:40 | gentauro | source: https://www.unison-lang.org/docs/what-problems-does-unison-solve/ |
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| 15:52:20 | <danza> | haskell already has semantic versioning, as far as i understand it. Version numbers should reflect a version's compatibility |
| 15:53:09 | <danza> | some languages (elm?) have the version numbers calculated automatically depending on interface changes, but that's another story |
| 15:55:25 | <geekosaur> | different application of "semantic": you're talking about exposed API, the usage here is code meaning whether exposed or not |
| 15:56:46 | <geekosaur> | the former impacts compatibility, the latter is about VCS thrashing |
| 15:58:15 | <danza> | oh i see. Cheers geekosaur |
| 15:59:29 | <geekosaur> | so for a concrete example, cabal is still using an ancient fourmolu because if/when we upgrade and reformat the code base, backports will conflict due to whitespace changes and possibly line splitting |
| 15:59:48 | <geekosaur> | this wouldn't happen with semantics-aware VC |
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| 16:00:25 | <danza> | yeah makes sense |
| 16:01:30 | <danza> | but having a version control tool that is language-specific sounds too demanding to me. I would rather live without the feature |
| 16:02:11 | <c_wraith> | the point of comparison, Unison, is an unusual one. It's not actually the version control that does that. It's the language itself. |
| 16:02:44 | <c_wraith> | function calls are content-addressable. |
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| 16:03:55 | <c_wraith> | this has its own downsides. If there's a bug in a function, fixing it means updating every place it was called by content. |
| 16:07:27 | <c_wraith> | It also has awkward limitations. I believe it supports alpha renaming when determining if code is "the same", but not most other trivial refactorings of the token sequence. |
| 16:08:18 | <gentauro> | danza: Elm has `syntactic versioning`. I think `unison` is the only one with "real" semantic versining |
| 16:08:53 | <c_wraith> | I understand why. The problem quickly becomes intractable. But then you start to feel the limits in a way then doesn't seem much like an actual improvement. |
| 16:09:07 | <c_wraith> | *that doesn't |
| 16:10:33 | <c_wraith> | I really think gofmt is a better solution to the same problem. And I really don't like gofmt. |
| 16:10:43 | <gentauro> | c_wraith: and danza I recall from a talk (example). If somebody defineds additions as `sum x y = x + y` and another person does it as `add a b = (+) a b`, then they have the same semantic versioning and would result in the same number (hash) |
| 16:11:40 | <danza> | well that's what c_wraith has been chatting about, content-addressing |
| 16:11:43 | gentauro | I'm guessing they have someking of "common ground" (for the sake of the example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_index) and that's how they can see if two snippets are the same |
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| 16:14:33 | <raincomplex> | equivalence of two programs is undecidable in general, right |
| 16:15:40 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 16:16:18 | <c_wraith> | and even a small set of simple transformations results in a massive potential combinatoric explosion |
| 16:17:30 | <c_wraith> | (some things you can canonicalize away, like fully saturated prefix vs infix application. But other things aren't so easy.) |
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| 16:23:53 | <gentauro> | c_wraith: FP app -> de-Brujin index -> SKI -> normalize (optimal reduction/transformation): https://tromp.github.io/cl/cl.html |
| 16:24:56 | <gentauro> | I'm just not aware if this only work for "very simple" logic |
| 16:28:42 | <c_wraith> | It works decently well for structural changes, even things like pulling a subexpression into a local binding. |
| 16:29:29 | <c_wraith> | But it can't handle any kind of change that relies on semantic properties. |
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| 16:31:05 | <c_wraith> | Is a + b the same as b + a? How about a + a and 2 * a? |
| 16:31:36 | <EvanR> | pulls out a cross indexed table of "kinds of sameness" |
| 16:32:03 | <c_wraith> | oh, deMorgan's laws! |
| 16:32:33 | <EvanR> | definitional equality, propositional equality, etc |
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| 16:34:02 | <c_wraith> | It's not tractable to handle most of those equivalences in practical terms... well before you reach the undecidable cases. |
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| 17:13:12 | <gentauro> | c_wraith: I'm assuming that if they use the built-in operator `+` (which is commutative) well then it would be "the same". However, this will only work for very formal languages … |
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| 17:30:36 | <gentauro> | oh found it, IFCP 2016 (JP). Now we just add a bit of HoTT to find the equivalent paths and all good -> https://youtu.be/caSOTjr1z18?t=796 (13:16 ish) |
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| 19:59:45 | <EvanR> | gentauro, nice framework, very powerful (and so universal decidability of equivalences is out the window) |
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| 22:31:01 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:31:13 | → | haritz joins (~hrtz@140.228.70.141) |
| 22:32:55 | × | haritz quits (~hrtz@140.228.70.141) (Changing host) |
| 22:32:55 | → | haritz joins (~hrtz@user/haritz) |
| 22:35:51 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 22:38:32 | × | haritz quits (~hrtz@user/haritz) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:38:43 | → | haritzondo joins (~hrtz@140.228.70.141) |
| 22:39:33 | × | sord937 quits (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937) |
| 22:46:48 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 22:47:34 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 22:51:04 | × | Square2 quits (~Square4@user/square) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:51:18 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 22:51:39 | → | Square2 joins (~Square4@user/square) |
| 22:56:53 | × | ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:57:04 | × | redshuffle quits (~quassel@45.43.70.75) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:57:12 | → | redshuffle joins (~quassel@45.43.70.75) |
| 22:57:14 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 22:57:18 | → | Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) |
| 23:03:28 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:06:40 | × | __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
| 23:10:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:16:37 | × | alter2000 quits (~alter2000@user/alter2000) (Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1) |
| 23:21:29 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:26:27 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) |
| 23:36:14 | × | ChaiTRex quits (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:36:34 | → | ChaiTRex joins (~ChaiTRex@user/chaitrex) |
| 23:36:59 | × | Square2 quits (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:37:18 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:40:12 | × | peterbecich quits (~Thunderbi@71.84.33.135) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 23:42:34 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
| 23:50:51 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
| 23:55:35 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:59:12 | → | merijn joins (~merijn@host-cl.cgnat-g.v4.dfn.nl) |
All times are in UTC on 2026-04-08.