Logs: liberachat/#haskell
| 2026-02-13 22:16:14 | <monochrom> | But what I *really* read between the line is simply "they should do it my way". |
| 2026-02-13 22:16:37 | <tomsmeding> | With how package managers work on linux distros that I know (disclaimer: just Ubuntu and Arch, though Fedora isn't any different apart from side notes about Silverblue), this just doesn't work on Linux |
| 2026-02-13 22:16:50 | <tomsmeding> | (apart from nix/nixos, that is) |
| 2026-02-13 22:16:55 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | What is it with this Nix stuff? Everything I saw about it immediately put me off. Can someone tell me what its point is in one sentence, cause I feel like I didn’t get the memo *and* everyone is hiding it from me when I search for infos on it. XD |
| 2026-02-13 22:17:37 | <monochrom> | nix declares dependencies. |
| 2026-02-13 22:18:01 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Ubuntu/Debian’s apt is a sad antiquated joke though. It’s more like something from 1999. |
| 2026-02-13 22:18:13 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (Like RPM) |
| 2026-02-13 22:18:22 | <tomsmeding> | someone else should do this, but: Nix gets you precisely this "you declare exactly your dependencies and those are what you get", plus that you don't need only a single version of some package X on your system, because everything can use their own version, transparently |
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| 2026-02-13 22:18:49 | <tomsmeding> | regardless of how antique apt is, I don't see how RPM is in any way better on the points relevant to the discussion here |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:04 | <geekosaur> | which is why I said this only works with nixos, since at present only that guarantees that the same system package manager can serve both your and the packagers' purposes simultaneously |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:04 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: That sounds indeed nice. So is it basically a more advanced package manager? |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:06 | <tomsmeding> | you can still just use stuff on the system without declaring that as a dependency in your package. |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:38 | <tomsmeding> | FluoridinatedFlu: The idea -- as a non-user, disclaimer! -- is that it tries to give you a "declarative system" |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:41 | <geekosaur> | because, as I said, the system package manager does not serve developers, it serves the packagers |
| 2026-02-13 22:19:50 | <tomsmeding> | which subsumes a package manager |
| 2026-02-13 22:20:24 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: As a Haskell programmer, and a supporter of the idea of the block universe, that’s of course very attractive. :) |
| 2026-02-13 22:20:51 | <tomsmeding> | at the same time, nix is a slippery slope to nixos, and the language is untyped with no good proposals for a sensible type system (so it's actually inherently untyped). :) |
| 2026-02-13 22:21:04 | <tomsmeding> | It kind of sounds like you should give nix a serious try |
| 2026-02-13 22:21:31 | <tomsmeding> | if nothing else, to figure out what things are wrong with nix so you can further refine your ideals on how systems should work |
| 2026-02-13 22:21:43 | <tomsmeding> | (I don't really know what's wrong with nix because I don't use it. :) ) |
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| 2026-02-13 22:22:05 | <mauke> | I don't use it either, but I've heard it's fashtech-adjacent |
| 2026-02-13 22:22:16 | <tomsmeding> | what in the world is "fashtech" |
| 2026-02-13 22:22:27 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | So you’re saying we need something more clean… more elegant… Like pure category theory expressed as unlambda… :D |
| 2026-02-13 22:23:19 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure we need that. It's a nice ideal, but I feel it's also an ideal that creates friction with reality in how I (and others) want to use their machines |
| 2026-02-13 22:23:31 | <tomsmeding> | But it sounds like you want it, hence us suggesting it. :) |
| 2026-02-13 22:23:41 | <monochrom> | We don't need more fragmentation or "one more standard". |
| 2026-02-13 22:23:53 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | (It was a joke. Like Toki Pona or a programming languages that consists purely of brackets ;) |
| 2026-02-13 22:24:20 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: fascism + technology. see also https://mas.to/@zzt/115272477801664683 |
| 2026-02-13 22:24:58 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | monochrom: Well, that’s easy: Just instead of NewStandard 1.0, call it ThatOldStandard 2.0! :D Look at my boy USB! :D |
| 2026-02-13 22:25:34 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | mauke: XD |
| 2026-02-13 22:25:37 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: what is @zzt referring to there? It seems like a random list of "bad stuff", but then "terrible Fisher-Price CSS" sounds like it's targeting something specific |
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| 2026-02-13 22:25:52 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | tomsmeding: Bad ideologies, in general, I would say. |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:06 | <monochrom> | Does nix have CSS? |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:07 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | Or fashionable ones |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:17 | <tomsmeding> | the nix website probably has css |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:25 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: might be tailwind. the x11 stuff is almost definitely xlibre |
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| 2026-02-13 22:26:40 | <geekosaur> | I might also drop in guix as a somewhat more principled nix-like |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:46 | <mauke> | the web browser is ladybird. the "distributed functional programming" is urbit |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:47 | <Clint> | what's the wayland part |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:52 | <mauke> | I don't know that one |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:54 | <tomsmeding> | because if this is just a random list of bad stuff, I'm still not sure what "fashtech" is supposed to mean :p |
| 2026-02-13 22:26:55 | <geekosaur> | but I don't think they've built an OS around hurd+guix as yet |
| 2026-02-13 22:27:00 | <FluoridinatedFlu> | I’m gonna develop a ASN.1 impllementation of Nix syntax; gouge your eyes out, because I am Nyarlathotep! XD |
| 2026-02-13 22:27:24 | <monochrom> | "corporations protecting you from yourself" sounds more like capitalism than fascism. |
| 2026-02-13 22:27:41 | <geekosaur> | and btb I originally read "fashtech" as a portmanteau of "fashion" and "tech", but then I think a lot of modern (especially web) tech has been there for years |
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| 2026-02-13 22:28:14 | <tomsmeding> | honestly, most of the things that mauke mentions fit more with "fashion tech" than "fascism tech" |
| 2026-02-13 22:28:19 | <mauke> | tomsmeding: they're projects lead, financed, or controlled by people who are anti-woke, anti-diversity, and/or plain racist |
| 2026-02-13 22:28:25 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 2026-02-13 22:28:55 | <ElementalFluorin> | monochrom: Uuum, in practice, capitalism’s goal of profit maximization by definition leads to totalitarian fascism though. But I think we’re getting too political in here now, for my taste. |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:01 | <mauke> | the "corporate control over packages" thing might be nix |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:04 | <Rembane> | I think I would prefer a world where more was fashion tech and less was fascism tech |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:14 | <ElementalFluorin> | tomsmeding: I tnink that was the joke. :) |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:20 | <tomsmeding> | I see :p |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:29 | <yushyin> | FluoridinatedFlu: be prepared for the fact that building haskell projects on nix/nixos can be a challenge, especially if you want to link against shared libs. When I tried that a while ago, I regularly ran into linker errors. I apparently exceeded the argv max length or something |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:33 | <ElementalFluorin> | mauke: Wouldn’t that be IBM/RedHat? |
| 2026-02-13 22:29:59 | <mauke> | ah, here's a version with an "answer key": https://lemmy.ca/post/52764317/19307072 |
| 2026-02-13 22:30:42 | <ElementalFluorin> | yushyin: Wait, so it’s this all new idea that will make dependencies super-easy, and you’re telling me it will make dependencies *harder* for me? Okay, I don’t think I wanna try NixOS. ^^ |
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| 2026-02-13 22:31:39 | <ElementalFluorin> | I think that list definitely misses the inner-platform effect though. :) |
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| 2026-02-13 22:32:03 | <ElementalFluorin> | And a mention of the Digital Donkey from thedailywtf.com. :D |
| 2026-02-13 22:34:08 | <ElementalFluorin> | (Basically a company tried to develop a MS Office killer… IN MS Office’s VBA! … Played Magic the Gathering for half a year… Cobbled together a GUI in a few days… Got a 40 million grant… pissed that away too… and somehow ended up offering its “MS Office killer” on laptops with satellite dishes on the back of donkeys in remote |
| 2026-02-13 22:34:08 | <ElementalFluorin> | mountain regions. … Ahh, the first dotcom bubble was a different time. XD) |
| 2026-02-13 22:35:17 | <ElementalFluorin> | (But hey, Startpage.com tries to be a privacy-enabled Google killer, by internally using Google, and having marketing guys leading their business. ;) |
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