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2020-09-26 00:53:15 <monochrom> Well, I am sympathetic because Dirac's delta function is useful, even though it's a headache to give semantics to.
2020-09-26 00:53:17 <dolio> EvanR: The stuff that mathematicians tell you is wrong, but actually works, at least.
2020-09-26 00:53:55 <dolio> Because the mathematicians lie about studying the basis for what the physicists are doing.
2020-09-26 00:55:03 × nineonine quits (~nineonine@216.81.48.202) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-26 00:55:12 <monochrom> I'm sympathetic to that too, because I believe that the mathematicians don't intend to lie, they just get sidetracked.
2020-09-26 00:55:36 → nineonine joins (~nineonine@216.81.48.202)
2020-09-26 00:55:36 <EvanR> i've come to see calculus notations as being part of a type system
2020-09-26 00:56:01 <EvanR> 5 and 5 dx aren't two different values, they not even the same type
2020-09-26 00:56:13 <monochrom> They started out really wanting to explain what the physicists are doing. Then there is a side discovery that led them down a tangent to a new hobby.
2020-09-26 00:56:26 <dolio> Yeah.
2020-09-26 00:57:11 × inkbottle quits (~inkbottle@aaubervilliers-654-1-115-202.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2020-09-26 00:57:51 × vk3wtf quits (~doc@27-32-252-91.tpgi.com.au) (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1)
2020-09-26 00:58:47 × xff0x quits (~fox@2001:1a81:52cd:2700:e58f:2a70:d271:af84) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-26 00:59:00 <dolio> That doesn't make them correct to say that the physicists need to follow the rules of their tangent hobby, though.
2020-09-26 00:59:37 <EvanR> prescriptive vs descriptive math ?
2020-09-26 00:59:45 × nineonine quits (~nineonine@216.81.48.202) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2020-09-26 01:00:26 <monochrom> tangential vs secantial :)
2020-09-26 01:00:29 <glguy> What're criticizing exactly?
2020-09-26 01:00:46 <glguy> We*
2020-09-26 01:01:03 <monochrom> We are not criticizing. OK, I am not.
2020-09-26 01:01:17 <glguy> Well that doesn't help me
2020-09-26 01:01:43 <monochrom> If you like, maybe it all started with criticizing coding styles?
2020-09-26 01:02:02 <dolio> I don't have a good specific example. But if you watch physics lectures, eventually you'll see a professor do something that doesn't make sense from a classical analysis perspective, and someone in some comments will say, "as a mathematician, what you did there was invalid."
2020-09-26 01:02:14 <monochrom> Like, if you have "1st long thing + 2nd long thing" to be split into two lines, where do you split and format the two lines?
2020-09-26 01:02:39 <dolio> Like, cancelling numerators/denominators in derivative stuff or something is a simple example.
2020-09-26 01:02:58 <EvanR> i kind of hope this characterization of "mathematicians" is only a stereotype
2020-09-26 01:03:02 <dolio> But there are mathematical systems where stuff like that is complately justified.
2020-09-26 01:03:45 × ahri quits (~ahri@178.209.40.84) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2020-09-26 01:03:58 <monochrom> We have similarly anal, narrow-minded programmers as well.
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2020-09-26 01:04:40 <monochrom> You write a C program that's tuned to your compiler and OS and hardware, and you know why it is correct in your context.
2020-09-26 01:04:55 × olligobber quits (olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-26 01:05:08 <dolio> This probably isn't a description of a lot of good mathematicians, but there are a alot of not good ones commenting on things.
2020-09-26 01:05:11 <monochrom> Someone is going to come and say "this line is UB" ignoring how you only intend your code for only one context.
2020-09-26 01:06:33 <dolio> Same phenomenon on interesting engineering principle videos I see that rack up comments about using PSI instead of metric, or pronouncing aluminum wrong.
2020-09-26 01:06:41 <EvanR> someone on the business end of dunning kruger
2020-09-26 01:07:12 <dolio> Can't focus on the interesting content instead of the veneer of units and stuff.
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2020-09-26 01:07:52 × xerox_ quits (~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:08:27 <dolio> I didn't watch your video because you pronounced solder differently than I do.
2020-09-26 01:09:13 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:10:34 × whataday quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-26 01:11:32 <EvanR> well, there being an isomorphism between physics in meters and physics in feet, or j^2 = -1 not i^2 seems different from stepping completely outside normal math rules
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2020-09-26 01:12:07 <EvanR> esp without warning
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2020-09-26 01:12:07 <dolio> I saw a video a few days back where the professor mentioned that the speed of light is pretty close to 1 foot/ns.
2020-09-26 01:13:56 <glguy> That's convenient for me as I use gigafeet a lot
2020-09-26 01:15:36 <dolio> Why are the normal math rules the ones that don't correctly describe what works in physics and stuff, then?
2020-09-26 01:16:41 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@24.105.81.50) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:17:02 <EvanR> maybe math courses have a hard time distinguishing between, all our practices are consistent across subjects because they form part of a holy pyramid, or are like that for technical convenience
2020-09-26 01:18:00 <dolio> Yeah, I mean, there's definitely the 'Platonist' "everything is applied (classical) math" angle pushed heavily.
2020-09-26 01:18:13 × carlomagno1 quits (~cararell@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:18:54 <ezzieyguywuf> if I'm doing `pure . Left "some error"` to put a Left into a State, isn't there a way to use fmap or something to do this more succinctly?
2020-09-26 01:19:24 ← parsnip parts (sid147265@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjnuxmoamisxbwgm) ()
2020-09-26 01:20:19 × mpereira quits (~mpereira@2a02:810d:f40:d96:5151:9344:10a3:da64) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:20:25 <dolio> I'm not sure how you could get much shorter than that.
2020-09-26 01:23:16 <monochrom> Wait a second, do you mean "pure (Left "some error")"? Or equivalently "(pure . Left) "some error""?
2020-09-26 01:23:32 <dolio> That was my assumption.
2020-09-26 01:23:39 × st8less quits (~st8less@2603:a060:11fe:0:b0dd:9d1b:8825:d363) (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1)
2020-09-26 01:23:44 × merijn quits (~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:23:53 <monochrom> But yeah it's as short as you can get.
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2020-09-26 01:25:00 <dolio> fmap is as long as pure, so I'm not sure how you could anticipate making something shorter with it. Left isn't a very long word, either.
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2020-09-26 01:25:54 × glguy quits (~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy) (Quit: Quit)
2020-09-26 01:25:56 <dolio> In some larger context maybe you could shorten things.
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2020-09-26 01:30:25 <ezzieyguywuf> dolio: monochrom: yes.
2020-09-26 01:30:52 <ezzieyguywuf> I thought that fmap could replace both pure and Left, but maybe I'm getting things confused.
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2020-09-26 01:33:29 <monochrom> fmap can replace it but you have to also replace a larger context.
2020-09-26 01:33:58 <monochrom> `cmd >>= pure . Left` is replaceable by `fmap Left cmd`
2020-09-26 01:34:15 <ski> monochrom : oh, so i should refer to Lamport, when using indentation to avoid multiple-line-spanning parentheses ?
2020-09-26 01:34:46 × ahri quits (~ahri@178.209.40.84) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2020-09-26 01:34:47 <monochrom> If you go `fmap Left (pure "some error")`, that's legal, but also dorky. :)
2020-09-26 01:34:55 <ezzieyguywuf> monochrom: that's what I was thinking of
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2020-09-26 01:35:13 <ezzieyguywuf> monochrom: i.e. cmd >> pure . Left
2020-09-26 01:35:25 × snakemasterflex quits (~snakemast@213.100.206.23) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-26 01:35:51 <monochrom> ski: I think I don't know what Lamport does to indentation vs multiple-line-spanning parentheses.
2020-09-26 01:36:16 <dolio> ezzieyguywuf: Well, if you mean >>=, that is `fmap Left`.
2020-09-26 01:36:34 <ski> mhm, ok
2020-09-26 01:36:39 <dolio> If you mean `cmd >> pure (Left x)` that is `Left x <$ cmd`.
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2020-09-26 01:43:42 <ezzieyguywuf> nah, I meant >>=
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